Has your under 5 ever been excluded from school?

[AtheneNoctua]

How does a 5 year old get like this? Surely some parents aren't taking their jobs seriously.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7713227.stm

AbbeyA - you hit the nail on the head there with "it costs money"

Is the conservative who is so disaproving of the exclusion levels in the original link proposing increased funding for such units, I wonder?

I agree with AbbeyA.

I have had chairs thrown at me, been kicked, bitten, scratched, slapped, thumped and sworn at, all by children under the age of 7. I've had children climbing furniture and climbing over fences to abscond. None of these children have had statements although some have IEPs.

This violence has also been aimed at other children in the class. If after a period of sustained collaboration with parents, the behaviour continues, I do believe that sometimes, a fixed term exclusion, or shorter times in school can be appropriate.

I think that money should be spent integrating the DCs when they start school, it would be a saving in the long run.

All the behaviour you have jsut described is horrible, obviously.

But it is behaviour my son has exhibited in school when scared and frustrated.

Ofcourse he needs to learn that such behaviour is in no way acceptable at any time, but we need to look at why children are behaving like this, and we need to help them learn how to behave aprpriately.

Because I'm a pushy mother, I demanded a referal to CAHMS, and my DS is now able to contol his behaviour much better after attening an anger management course. IMO, I shouldn't have had to push for it, or waited a year for him to go on the course, but then yet again it comes down to funding.

The other thing that has hugely improved my sons behaviour is feeling safe and secure in school. Something that is not always easily achievable with one teacher to 30 children in a large shcool. Yet again funding is the issue.

In this article it says "10 pupils aged two and under were suspended for physically assaulting another child." Is it me or is that just a bit ridiculous? I am assuming they mean the biting/pinching/pushing/hitting thing that is all part of being 2.

It all comes down to funding! A teacher is only human, she can't meet the needs of all, especially if some of them have needs that require specialist help.
If you have 30 children and an hour lesson it means that each DC can only have 2 mins individual time (less, because some time is required talking to them all at the start). A problem DC will take more than 2 mins which means that some DCs lose out completely. The answer is to have more adult help in the classroom.

The sort of behaviour referred to in the article is not a normal part of being 2!!

TWO year olds excluded for 'physically assaulting another child'? The world has gone completely mad.
Yes, I bet a huge number of these children have an undiagnosed/unsupported ASD.
My son threw chairs when left unsupported in a hectic, very noisy dining hall, and wasn't allowed to eat snacks despite his becoming extremely distressed by feelings of hunger, and having blood sugar swings - quite typical with AS. Just giving him a mid-morning snack and providing support has totally turned things around.

where do they explain what the behaviour was i couldn't see anything.

nappyaddict - an exclusion would not be made for the "biting/pinching/pushing/hitting thing that is all part of being 2". It would have been behaviour that meant the child was a danger to the other children, the teacher, or himself.

What are 2 year olds doing in school anyway? Do they start earlier these days?

I still think that schools which are excluding very young children more than once in a blue moon are probably pretty crap. My children's school is not the greatest in the world in many ways and has its fair share of kids with difficulties but exclusion is rare. This is as it should be.

LF - have you had experience of that sort of behaviour in 2 year olds that would require exclusion?

I've had experience of behaviour that in some settings may have resulted in exclusion. In ours, it meant support through the family support service, CAHMS, Health Visitors etc.

It is never just exclusion at that age but they need to have support, the whole family needs support and the school or nursery that excluded them may not be the place. Other agencies need to be involved. This is not normal 2 yr old 'naughtiness' or the odd tantrum, it is dangerous and unpredictable behaviour which a teacher cannot handle within a class situation. The other children have to come first-the child in question needs specailist help. It needs funding.

Everyone seems focussed on the needs of the child who is being excluded, but what about the needs of the rest of the children in the class? I taught secondary, so don't know about primary; but there were certain classes I dreaded teaching as I knew there were one or two students who would kick off every lesson (and they didn't have SN), just because they could. They did it with most teachers.

It wasted my teaching time and disrupted the lesson when they started and disrupted the education of the other kids. I was relieved when these particular students were excluded for a time and we got back on track with the syllabus.

I think you also need to distinguish between SN such as autism and aspergers and those with EBDs (emotional and behavioural difficulties) some of which are a direct result of their family lives. Yes, these kids need a fair crack at an education, but so do the rest who behave consistently well.

I havent read it all, just OP and it made me
My younger brother was excluded 3 times in his first school year. He has ADHD and a mild form of aspergers (not diagnosed then)
My Mum had 3 older children who all sailed through school top of all classes and she did her best with my youngest brother too.
its NOT the parents fault!!!

my son was excluded on a weekly basis from the time he turned 5 to he started at a pupil referral unit aged 7. he was permanently excluded from one school for his behaviour but the school did nothing to help me sort his behaviour out, all they did was blame me as the parent and even accused me of abusing my child and also hinted that my husband must beat me and that my son had seen this resulting in the behaviour. The second school he went to used exclusion as more of a timeout for the teachers as they recognised DS has needs beyond their capabilites. DS was diagnosed as Atypical Autistic, ODD and SPD in August this year (after 2 years of battling) unfortunately he has had nearly 3 years of negative schooling and is now in a special school where i am hoping he can get a positive education.

How many of these children have undiagnosed SN? Milder Autistic Spectrum problems are not usually picked up until the child enters into the school environment. I think the problem lies with the funding given to schools, my son had no problems academically, he is a high achiever, the first school insisted that because he was achieving he didnt qualify for a statement or extra support and indeed the LEA agreed, obviously we argued this and managed to get him a statement purely based on his behaviour problems BUT this took time and in the meantime DS behaviour spiraled out of control because the school did not have the training or funding to meet his needs. My argument the whole time i was fighting for a statement was basically that if my son needed more help reading and writing he would have got it but my son needed help with controlling his anger and recognising his emotions and that is something that the schools do not have funding for or if they do they dont use the funding for these children.
YES the saftey and education of the other children is important BUT that does not mean it is more important than the children who are struggling at school, school is for EVERY CHILD and i certainly feel that my son was let down massively by the system.
More training for teachers, more control for teachers, more funding for schools, wider acceptance and understanding of the wide range of disorders that can affect children, faster diagnosis times could all help but obviously this is just my opinion as a mother who has been through hell in the last 3 years so it may be biased!

I think the problem is that although schools are given money for SN, it is for specific learning difficulties, and for those with aspergers, autism etc. The problem with anger management is that at secondary level anyway, it is not what the school is there to do. I was there to teach, and whilst I supported those with difficulties as best I could, some of those children should not have been in mainstream education. I guess for anger management that is what CHAMS is there for, and other specialist organisations.

Yes, school is for every child as you say, and that means that the needs of the other children also HAVE to be taken into account. You fight for your child's rights and needs and that is how it should be; but other parents will and do feel just as strongly about the needs and rights of their children to have an education in safety as well.

I don't think there is an answer to this one; it's a bit like the NHS, everyone has needs but the money pot only goes so far.

lynette did your child go the anger maangement course through the school?

There is a boy in my son's class who has just been excluded. I feel very very sad that this has happened, as the poor boy seems to have enough problems in his life and I think he does need help. I don't know his mum, so I don't know what help has been offered if any.

BUT
This boy is getting more and more violent. In the incident that got him excluded, he had been about to attack another boy with a ruler, and there were four boys (my ds included) that stood between the the 2 boys. Thank god the boy in question did not attack the boys that were sheilding. The boy ended up hitting the teacher with the ruler.

LF - what sort of behaviour are we talking about?

I felt from early on in my sons troubles that he needed a specialist school, i asked for this to be done. The LEA insisted my sons needs could be met in a mainstream school, i did not want my son to be continually excluded for his behaviour when his behaviour was as a result of the asd, I understand my son is a huge risk and distraction for other children and put a huge strain on the teaching staff at both the MS schools he attended, as his mother i did not want that for my son, i fought long and hard to get my son out of MS and into a specialist school, the LEA denied my son this for 3 years. Its not always the parents fault. I even urged one parent to make a formal complaint when my son stabbed her DS with a pencil, the LEA and therefore government are the ones pushing for intergration for all.....well im sorry but its not a one size fits all problem.

I work with kids going through the care system - for 10 years as a lawyer, now on a voluntary basis - and many of them get suspended excluded.
Some have SN, nearly all have had poor parenting to some extent.
I usually fight tooth and nail to keep them in school as they have enough going on without being excluded.
But...their behaviour is sometimes so challenging I can see how it will be utterly disruptive for everyone else.
And I have known under 5s who bit, kicked, spat, swore. I can understand how other parents found it unacceptable. I also remember a teacher in tears, saying she wanted to give up teaching because one of my clients was ruining her life .

My answer to the OPs question is no.

Many people complain about the over-use of Ritalin type drugs in school childen. Personally, I don't think enough children are on them and that teachers should be able to administer the drug at will. The more disruptive children are sedated, the better education the other children will get.

I don't think you'll get teachers administering Ritalin ever, or being willing to; I certainly wouldn't give it.

I think too many children are on it, and in some cases feeding them a decent meal would stop some of the problems - rather than red bull and coca cola all the time plus foods that are high in sugar and additives. I speak from experience of the difference it made to one child that I taught.