can we please note how useless the Tories are being in this current crisis?

[morningpaper]

They have NO IDEAS

Even the Telegraph reported Cameron as giving one of his worst performances in the commons

I also think Dave is a good guy but worry about his dinner clubs with the super rich, and his lack of clear statements that we need much more regulation of financial institutions. In a recent speech Barack Obama said we shouldn't just give free reign to the billionaires and hope their wealth sprinkles down on the rest of us. It generally doesn't happen like that, because a good lawyer knows how to protect wealth.

One advantage of Dave having personal wealth is that it frees him from certain elements of self interest. A while back, he said that a review of public sector pensions was needed which I quite agree with. I would like to see a complete abolition of tax payer funded pensions, with pay increases to compensate public sector workers. That way everyone is on a level playing field and it would sort our national debt problem out.

I also think Dave is a good guy but worry about his dinner clubs with the super rich, and his lack of clear statements that we need much more regulation of financial institutions. In a recent speech Barack Obama said we shouldn't just give free reign to the billionaires and hope their wealth sprinkles down on the rest of us. It generally doesn't happen like that, because a good lawyer knows how to protect wealth.

One advantage of Dave having personal wealth is that it frees him from certain elements of self interest. A while back, he said that a review of public sector pensions was needed which I quite agree with. I would like to see a complete abolition of tax payer funded pensions, with pay increases to compensate public sector workers. That way everyone is on a level playing field and it would sort our national debt problem out.

I feel so strongly about this that I had to say it twice.

'If you take money from the hard-working middle classes and give it to those who don't want to work, then how is that fair? '

Oh bugger, all those years I have been payng tax and I ddntr ealise being WC was an exemption

I have astonished by how much New Labour have cosied up to the mega rich. Does anyone remember how scared they were to put that tiny tax (a one off levy of about £30,000) on our London non doms? Kept saying it would scare the billionaires off to another country- well good riddance, what help have they been anyway?

Well i'm not impressed with it but I thought that was the key difference between old and new labour? Sadly.

They probably think all the working classes ( define?) get tax credits...

'If you take money from the hard-working middle classes and give it to those who don't want to work, then how is that fair? '

Yes, because only certain people are 'hard-working'.

Anyone who gets up and goes to work to earn a crust works for it.

Ooh, a heated political debate!!

How is it that so many people can agree with Lib Dem policies and that Vince Cable is the man to get us out of this financial mess, but still say "oh but I wouldn't vote for them"! Surely if we all did, they would actually have a hope of getting in and we could have some real change in this country?

Haven't read the whole thread but the Tories are not in power so what are they supposed to do? If I was David Cameron I'm not sure I'd want to win an election anytime soon. Brown has been in charge for ages and it is his fault that we are so ill prepared to deal with this economic downturn. i find it really bizzare that he seems to be enjoying sorting it out without a trace of irony.

SamllWhiteCat - yet again I find myslef nodding vigorously at your posts! Please stand for parliament and I will vote for you!

Vince Cable is my local MP. I have always voted for him, not cos I'm a lib dem, but because I like him personally and think he is also a good constituencey MP.

I also never could fathom out how an economy could be entirely based on people moving house a lot and buying endless tat, most of which they didn't need...well, it couldn't.

And how could the banks lend all this money to just about anyone...surely there is only ever going to be a finite number of people who earn enough and can afford to pay back massive loans? Well, there is, and they only just noticed.

And no government or treasury adviser ever had these same thoughts?
This must be why I work in IT risk assessment, and not government!!!!

I do wish someone would say "the people who decided lending 125% on a home value to someone who self certified will all be sacked. They are clearly unfit to run a bank."
David Cameron could suggest that, except that, as a Tory, I suspect most of his social circle consists of these bankers.

LOL a tthe idea that if the Tories had been in charge, this financial crisis wouldn't have happened or would have been handled differently.

"i hate the way we lay the blame on govts for our OWN excesses. It is we who borrowed and consumed too much; the govt didn't give away our money to aliens from out of space when we weren't looking? "
well not far off, they deregulated the Bank of England, sanctioned unsustainable expansion of borrowing in the form of mortgages and cash credit. That is only the tip of the iceberg. Do not be ridiculous, the Government are not blameless in this, they may not be totally to blame, since this is a global recession, but they have very dirty hands.

"the trouble is Vince Cable is not representative of his party really. If he were I'd prob vote for them myself but the fact that they wouldn't make him leader shows what shit for brains most lib dems have."
This is bollocks, I agree Vince Cable seems OK, but you have to remember that he has agreed to Clegg being leader, and Clegg is AWFUL!!! Charles Kennedy pissed is worth ten times Blair, Brown, Cameron and Clegg added together (well, 20 x blair!)

rose100 I agree! Labour have been absolutely pathetic with regards to reasonable levels of income tax, and for some incredible reason (i.e. votes), under Clegg the lib dems are doing the same.

'i hate the way we lay the blame on govts for our OWN excesses. It is we who borrowed and consumed too much; the govt didn't give away our money to aliens from out of space when we weren't looking? '

speak for yourself!

whilst i agree with you that there was a a lot of irresponsible borrowing, and i've posted ad nauseum about that, there are PLENTY of us who were refused to play that game, who knew damn well that bull markets go bear every time. nothing ever lasts forever.

and now the prudent are being penalised as well as the irresponsible.

so the message we get from the government who keeps throwing money at this inevitable outcome is: next time, fuck it. just be irresponsible. there'll be no negative consequence to it and no gain if you've refrained from over-extending yourself.

Expat, if that was directed at me, I'm quoting from another poster!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree that non-doms should be taxed until the pips squeak - but I listened to Nick Clegg's conference speech, and it sounded like redistributive taxation to me. Haven't read the policy in detail though. Maybe I'm missing something?

no, minky, if it were directed at you, i'd have said so, ToughDaddy posted that.

how did it? he's completely scrapped the upper band they used to have? He's just a mini cameron

thanks, sorry, just had to clarify

He seemed to be saying - more tax for those earning £50,000+ (I think), less for those on low incomes.

I'm going to see if I can find out.

OK, this from LibDem website:

'[We propose] cutting the basic rate of income tax to just 16p... and scrapping the unfair council tax, which hurts the poorest the most... the poorest pensioners pay four times as high a percentage of their income than the richest working people. Removing this unfair tax and replacing it with a fair local income tax will massively shift the tax burden away from the poor - and take many people on the lowest incomes out of tax altogether...

And we will make up the money by taxing pollution and reforming capital gains tax and pensions tax relief... We believe everyone should be entitled to basic rate relief on their pension contributions - but higher earners shouldn't get extra money by getting higher rate tax relief...

We will index-link capital gains and then tax them as income. No more will hedge fund managers be able to present their income as capital to secure themselves an 18% tax rate, while their cleaners pay 31%.

We must stop the drive from companies who decide to locate "virtually" offshore. A Liberal Democrat Government would have a very simple rule. If your company is based in the UK, you pay tax in the UK - not Jersey or the Cayman Islands.'

Nothing about income tax rises for higher earners, but lots of other tax rises for them.

Apologies for extremely dull post.