is it unsisterly to think that Sarah Palin is horrid and the worst possible example of a woman in power

[beforesunrise]

ok, I used to think that as women we ought to support other women to almost unreasonable levels. i was totally for Hillary despite Obama's star appeal.... but then came Sarah Palin. i abhor her and everything she stands for. i am incredibly disgusted by the level of PC that prevents people from stating the obvious, ie that she is an incredibly BAD mother and she gives women a bad name.. i mean WTF, going back to work after 3 DAYS of giving birth, exposing your pregnant 17 yo to national attentionand not being there for her while she needs you most... she keeps banging on about being a hockey mom but having delivered 5 children is not the same thing about being a good mum. she is also incredibly, scarily unqualified for the job. i cannot find one ounce of feminist feeling for her... and it makes me question my beliefs!

Sorry, you miss my point. These questions are not applied to us. They are things we think about ourselves when making decisions about what we want to do. So I would like to be a management consultant, but don't think it squares with primary school aged kids (too much traveling). Actually my dh is very supportive of me doing it. He also thinks about length of working day, flexibility etc because he is a hands on dad. If you go on about your parenting when you are selling yourself you shouldn't be surprised if what you do comes under scrutiny. When at work "I have never said to anyone, trust me, I'm a mother" but essentially that is what SP is preaching.

I agree that she opened this book by doing just as described in her speech. But, I don't agree that childcare issues are any more of an issue for her than they are for Obama. Why has no questioned his ability to look after his young girls?

When has he ever made a big deal about being a father - vote for me I'm a great dad? To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't try this line (US politicians will try anything it seems), but it doesn't seem to be one of the foundations of his campaign.

think she is a loon, anti abortion, into hunting,right wing fascist. Think Mcain has chosen her wisely though, she will pull female supporters.

I even dislike the look of her, she looks like the typical 'all american' mom.

Why couldnt Hilary Clinton get in??? (swifty wails)

Is anyone concerned over whether Michelle and Barack Obama are able/planning to have more children? Or is it just Sarah Palin and her husband (whose name I have forgotten - hmm - remember Michelle Obama though, and Cindy McCain).

Sarah Palin was back at work very, very soon after giving birth. So she has demonstrated her position on that pretty clearly.

Strangely enough, that is also used as a stick with which to beat her.

Either way, she can't win.

Well yes, I'd agree with nooka. She is campaigning, pretty clearly on family values and her beliefs. Obama is campaigning on various things (not all of them necessarily well articulated) but amongst them is not, as far as I can tell, family values. In fact, unless I'm missing something, I can't recall the last time a VP or Presidential candidate campaigned so clearly on family values?

Again, if you put these at the forefront of your campaign and are willing to repeatedly push your family and your family members as part of this, then they become fair game.

I took her speech more as to say My name is Sarah Palin and this is who I am. Here is my family and here my political career. She talked about a lot of things.

Her husband is Todd Palin. And in case you want to recall the children's names too:

Track
Bristol
Willow
Piper
Trig

Now, what I can't quite reconcile myself with (apart from the whole anti-abortion thing) is her children's names. Weird.

But the point is equality is not the same as sameness.

And people do ask questions about men - they do. Denying that they do just weakens your agrument. They might not ask as much questiosn - but again, what if that's becasue the link between women and children is more pressing for us. And it is. It's in our biolology and it is not a weakness, just motherhood that is seen as weak - and by many feminists it seems. They want what men have and to hell with the women who say in droves, well we don;t want that.

It's like feminism is putting it's fingers in it's ears and whistling dixie when it comes to this issue. And we wonder why feminism is in crisis

"It's in our biology"???

Lay your proof on the table, please.

"But, I don't agree that childcare issues are any more of an issue for her than they are for Obama. "

Then you are trying to be gender blind and just as attempts to be colour blind end up missing the point, so does this.

and if we want toprogress with this argiment it would be helpful if we could takles one idea at a time - so if I say we parenting is an issue for most women, it would help not to then jump to the assumtion I am saying women shouldn't work in some jobs. I am not saying that at all. I'm just trying to wrestle with one problem at a time, understand it, get it in context and then move on to aniother issue, etc, etc.

Are you saying that men are less capable of parentinh than women are? (pregnancy, childbirth, and breastfeeding aside)

Do you think Obama is less able to care for his girls (Sasha and.... can't remember the other one?) than Michelle is?

Oh yes, AN, love the names too!

But honestly, you've read the speech - this was not an introduction to herself and her family (like any politician would waste words on their family without any political gain anyway). This was a straight voter appeal using her family.

LOL

You can't just push pregnancy, childbirth and breastfeeding aside - they are the absolute nub of the issue!

But just to clarify, my position as a feminist is to try to help women, not feminism itself. If feminism has stopped listening to women, then we need to throw away the map and start again...which is what some of us are doing.

Okay, sorry (apologies if this has already been mentioned) to all.
I just read on Kos:State of the Nation that Alaska charges their rape victims for the cost of the rape kits.
This to save money.
Comments?

"You can't just push pregnancy, childbirth and breastfeeding aside - they are the absolute nub of the issue!"

Exactly! I'd say they are the whole issue.

www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/8/20552/56258/308/591588 here is the article...for what it's worth.

Right, so why try to set them aside?

In the hope of calming things down and releasing the loggerheads it would be good if we could both (and Dittany) appreciate that we are all feminists, just looking at the issue from different perspectives, so there is no snake in the grass to be had.

If you read a bool like Sarah Blaffer Hrdy's Mothernature it becomes clear that the vorotious mothering instinct is something to be very proun of, as it has maintained our species over milenia. It is emmesley empowering, whilst also being undervalued as we do (and have always) done it for free.

Sometimes, in feminist disourse these two terms (disempowerment and undervalued) are collapsed, which leads to countless errors of reasoning.

The thing that much of feminism misses in the quest to make the glass half empty instead of half full, is that their are costs to men in not doing the bulk of parenting - the world is a much more dangerous place for men, reletivly speaking. Men do not have it all. That is an illusion. Yes, women have been terribly oppressed in the past and still are in some highly patriachal cultures - but this is not one of them anymore. The anger of an older generation of women is simply not flet by the younger generation and feminism has to face that - that it might have actually succeeded inmuchof it's goals and now all that's called for is a strategy of observation and management not revolutionary revolt. Just an idea...

""It's in our biology"???

Lay your proof on the table, please."

Again sorry, lol.

Is pregnancy, childbirth and breastfeeding not a matter of biology?

"not revolutionary revolt"

Not here anyway - it should be helping those women in other cultures achieve what we enjoy here instead of burying it's head in cultural reletvism and going on about glass ceilings. Women anywhere near the glass ceiling are not oppressed by definition. Some women are in desperate hardship and this is where feminism needs to be turning it's direct gaze.

There once was a magazine called Omni (I think that was it) and it is physically possible for men (with an operation to put a viable fetus on their intestine, to form a placenta, to carry a baby to term. The baby has to be removed via C-section of course and they have to be in bed for the course but it is possible. Although they had several gay men wanting this done (so they could have their own children via help from female friends) it was just easier to have female friends carry the babies. Less complications...but it would have opened up more avenues for couples to have their own children if the female or lack of one could not.

Physically possible in hypothetical terms - but again such 'ideas' discount the immense complexity of the womb environment which has been honed over millions of years evolution; of the hormonal soup that foetuses are developed in which influences their sexuality, amongst other things.

Ideas like that seem (to me) to be about denying the uniqueness of femaleness and are a real attempt at disempiowering women from feeling the true strength of essencial femaleness.

I don't reall have time to continue now. Will come back later. But,I just want to say that my point was that aside from childbirth, pregnancy, and breast feeding men are as capable as women are to look after their offspring.

I thin we will agree that women are better prepared for pregnancy, childbirth, breast feeding. But I think you are arguing that it goes beyond that. I am saying no it doesn't.

K, has anyone read the article about rape victims paying for their own rape kits?
This is because SP fired the guy that handled this in favor of hiring someone else so her county (she was mayor at that time) could charge the victims for their kits.

I think SP is clearly not the woman everyone initially thought she was. I certainly wouldn't want her making any decisions for me as a woman or otherwise. Again, apologizes for putting the thread back on track.