Church schools should stop discriminating against teachers and pupils, say church leaders

[edam]

This news story is interesting. New group of church leaders and 'secular figures' campaigning to stop religious schools discriminating against non-religious families and staff, or those from the 'wrong' denomination.

(I have looked to see if there's a thread on this already but couldn't find one.)

From Peachy:
"Now, if church schools were independently run from the main provision that would be different, but they're aprt of the manstream provision, many villages only have a C of E school."

I take the point about villages. And I mentioned this way down the thread. I can understand if it's the only school around that that's a problem. But, then, perhaps we should be looking at how many schools are faith schools and how many are not. I guess the supply should fit the demand.

Are we out of non-faith places, or is it just because the faith schools are in higher demand? If it's the latter maybe we should be looking at improving non-faith schools so that people who don't want a faith education for their kids will want to go to those schools.

There is also a view that the faith aspect is the very thing that makes the schools better. Because it builds a single community, parents are more involved and tend to support the school more. And that environment contributes to the academic excellence.

The vast majority of faith school parents can't afford to go private. They aren't going to give up their school. And why are those faith school student no longer entitled to public funds for education. It's not like the schools teach religeon and nothing else. They are teaching the national curriculum. And surely that is what the funds are for?

In fact, I'm curious, does anyone know if the curriculum at a faith school differs from that at a non-faith state school?

Arrghh wrote a long pst and baby deleted!

'The only people who are upset about faith school are the peole who are upset that their child didn't get in.
'- clearly not te case , my kids did get in. Indeed, 2 of mine are statemented so can go pretty much where they like!

Suffice it to say that chutch school = good school is not clear cut! Church school are often located in well off communities, or places where commitment to the childs education exists regardless of faith. with those factors in place any school can thrive.

Children raised in single thread existences never see beyond that and education needs to mix childre. My primary was deprived estate; kids emulated parents and expectations were to get pg, work in a factory. That's what they did. Those kids went to senior with me but because the parents weren't able to see beyond their own lives, ended up mixing with others kid with the same ambitions and guess what- got pg at 14 or ended up in te factory the day afer leaving at 16. Some of these kids were very able.

I was lucky; I somehow ended up in a different social group where I heard of university, college etc. These kids were not ones i'd have met at home, they were in my school as part of a carefully managed catchment scheme which deliberately combined very low income homes with very igh ones. It worked for many of the (like me) 'middler' kids, gave us new outlooks etc.

Church schols are largely exempt from this, and that concerns me.

i see the first anti-catholic bigot has touched down.

athene it does at ours

primary re teachers (we're in wales though- england not sure) get to choose 2 faiths for the school. Ours selected Christianity and Judasm. Judaism ias covered by reading the OT

I offered to help- my degree is in 7 world faiths- and was told a definite no. That saddened me- I want my kids to nderstand and know about lots of faiths.

I don't beieve that faith schools are better because of faith, there are many excellent non-faith schools (cmmuni ties matter and can be based on more than religion). But there is a lot i agree wth in your last post Athene

Okay AN, I guess we'll have to disagree on whether there is an effective separation of church and state. I'm utterly convinced that there is in practice but clearly you believe that there isn't. I guess if you believe that the church and the state are one, then that would allow for discrimination by CoE schools only of course and I'm still, shall we say, puzzled as to why if the church and the state are one why we don't allow religious matters to actively influence other matters of state and just religion but hey, agree to disagree.

As CD says, I'm not upset about faith school because DD can't get in. She's way too young to go at the moment anyway and I honestly wouldn't want her to be educated in a religiously biased school anyway, regardless of the fact that the local CoE primary school is the best in the area - if I did feel strongly about it, I'd simply lie and pretend to be Christian like various other parents locally I know and know doubt, get her in.

The fact that they're in high demand is neither here not there. Demand for something does not evidence that something is right or wrong. If a certain school was popular because it practised corporal punishment on underperforming pupils that would not make corporal punishment right. If a certain school was popular because it had the best teachers and best facilities funded by money from the criminal activities of one of the governors, that does not make it right.

And of bloody course the parents of the pupils are going to vote to keep them. They're hardly going to vote against! Do turkeys vote for Christmas? Whilst there is nastiness on the side of those against faith schools, I'll be honest, there is a very self-satisfied smugness about those whose kids are in faith school - I'm alright cos my kids are where I want them to be and where my beliefs can be looked after.

Ooops. doh, that should read just education in the first paragraph.

Really this is not jealousy

FWIW dd's school's results (for what they are worth!) were better than the Catholic primary at the end of our road both on Value Add and aggregate points.

The school she is at is the best school for her, I firmly believe this having visited the four schools surrounding my house. Nothing to do with performancy, just the overall ethos of the school. So I guess in a way I should be grateful for the discrimination as I woudn't have wanted her ending up in a church school

performancy is a great word

Countess I like performancy too.

This has nothing to do with the link between church and state. There is no link between the Catholic church and the state (or indeed between the state and any other religion) and yet those schools are also allowed to discriminate against non-believers

And athene - you never did answer my question about those children who go to your DCs school who are non-believers. Did they lie to get in?

ok, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have generalised about parents who are upset because their kids didn't get in. It was off the cuff and I humbly appologise.

Peachy, that's interesting about only two religeons. Ours teaches all the major religeons (Hunduisn, Buddism, Islam, Judaism, and Christianity) They made little dishes that they brought home for Hawali last year. That's all cool. I'm happpy for her to be educated on world religeons (And CD just so you don't feel left out she also loves the Wizard of Oz). They do spend more time on Christianity... I can't remember how much more.

Sorry, spicemonster. They don't need to lie to get in. The entrance criteria is that 70% of the places go to children who have at least one parent who has worshipped at the church at least once a month for the past 12 months, and 30% of the places go to children who live nearest the school. And they take syblings and special needs before they do the 30/70 split. So if you live across the street from the school, you should get in. If you are a true churchgoer and the vicar can confirm it you should get in.

I think the high demand argument is fairly specious. The school at the end of our road told me that they were heavily oversubscribed and I should not assume my children would get in. However at the time (this may have changed) you could apply for as many schools as you liked. All the parents that I knew applied for several schools, some of which were speculative (ie no change of getting in) and some more for insurance) we applied to eight schools ourselves (all the local schools except the Catholic or CoE ones). I could have applied for the Catholic one too, and the children probably would have got in on the basis of my Catholic roots. I think that whenever there is parental choice you are going to get oversubscription. That is not necessarily the same as high demand. We actually got in to the school we wanted the children to go to - if we had been confident about that we would not have applied to any of the others.

I will continue to refer to imaginary friends as imaginary friends. While I support everyone's right to believe any old bollocks they like, I see no need to pretend that it's anything other than ridiculous.

And I'm not objecting to faith schools because I couldn't get my DS into one: actually, my most personal objection to faith schools is that the nearest school to us is a faith school -which does give places on grounds of proximity, is apparently a nice school and all that - but it is a faith school, socially divisive and peddling crap and therefore I will not be sending DS there and will have to find a school that's further away, which is a bit annoying.

you may have name changed solidgold but you are still as bigoted and offensive as ever. How deliciously ironic that you think your stance is anti discriminatory.

Just get back to the sex threads - more suited to your personality methinks.

And how much further away are we talking?

Do we have sex threads?

I don't discriminate against the superstitious or their imaginary friends. I do not deny them access to any services, disrupt their rituals or call them names in the street. I just don't see any reason to treat superstitions with any deference, on a public debating forum.

er, yes you have called them the following:
stupid
witless
peddling crap.

Your comments are spiteful and childish. You speak of all those who believe in God or have religious feelings with contempt and ridicule.

Yo are indeed bigoted Solidgold, and just as sadly seemingly immune to the desre to not want to hurt peoples feelings.

Athene does your Church have that many worsjippers? Wow! If I take ds2 there's usually only one other family there, amongst the ld ladies, and this is religious Wales! Several attend the Evangelical though, but not my scene.

We probably get about 50 kids under the age of 10 on any given Sunday (less in school hols). Our church is full of young families and is very much not a high church. You are more likely to bombarded with shaky fruit that you are to see a procession.

AtheneNoctua,

Would your church still be full of young families if it wasn't for the church school?