Russian agression in Georgia

[AtheneNoctua]

BBC story

What do you think Western Europe's response should be Russia's invasion of Georgia. This is of course nothing to do with protecting their newly created citizens and everything to do with getting control of the BTC pipeline.

Scary stuff if you ask me. I mean just how much do you want to pay for a liter of petrol. For those who don't know, BTC is the only pipeline which carries oil from the Caspian to Europe and does not pass through Russia. How many taps are we willing to put in Russia's control? I was glad to read Bush has stood up for Georgia, as has Cheney. Why isn't Western Europe doing the same? Are they afraid of Russia? Or do they think it's okay for Russia to go around invading countries so they can control the flow of oil to the West?

So Georgia invaded first?

yes

summary on wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_osettia#1989-2008

In the first hours of August 8, 2008, a mass incursion of Georgian troops and armour to a South Ossetian-controlled territory and repeated shelling of Tskhinvali began.[30] AFP, quoting a spokesman of the Georgian Interior Ministry, stated that three Russian Sukhoi Su-24 aircraft had intruded on Georgian airspace, attacking some targets in the Tskhinvali region. On the same day, twelve Russian peacekeepers were killed and nearly 150 injured.[31]

The Russian Prime-Minister Vladimir Putin said that the Russian Government "condemns the aggressive actions by Georgian troops in South Ossetia" and that Russia would be compelled to retaliate.[32][33] Heavy fighting was reported in Tskhinvali for most of August 8, with Georgian forces attempting to push Ossetians slowly from the city.[34]

Meanwhile, Russian tanks rolled across the border to aid South Ossetia,

I don't know where BBBee is getting her ideas from - very strange. 'Provoked' into invading Russian airspace? Saakashvili, the Georgian president, stated that he wanted to impel the South Ossetians to be part of Russia proper as far back as 2004 (I lived their for a portion of 2005) so the Russians have been expecting it since then. 99% of the South Ossetians have Russian passports. They don't WANT to be part of Georgia (as I said before, North Ossetia is still part of Russia!) and it was working tolerably well as a tripartite state, controlled jointly by S.O. themselves, Russia and Georgia. Georgia have been biding their time and making noises about wanting to join NATO, and foolishly thought that as a result of this, when they went into South Ossetia and invaded Russian airspace, their tiny army wouldn't matter because they'd be (militarily) backed by the West. They are simultaneously aggressive, hypocritical and quite staggeringly naive. Precisely the sort of administration you DON'T want in a sensitive region like the Caucasus. I was listening to a report on Radio 4 last night about this where they were interviewing Georgians about what's gone on, and while they are pissed off with the Russians and feel let down by the West, the person they are really fucked off with is the president, who got them into this stupid, needless fucking mess.

Monkeytrousers (re. why Russia went in)

• they want to control Georgia so can control all the oil pipelines to Europe, and (related) as a show of strength following independence of Kosovo/capture of Karazdic (seen as defeats for Russia) and Czech decision to house a radar system. Also ahead of US elections - although this will presumably strengthen support for McCain a bit, maybe the Russian establishment is feeling 'bring it on'-ish about McCain? Wanting to feel got at?

It's a fine line between Europe taking a tougher stance towards Russia in the name of self-defence, and coming out with the sabre-rattling that so much of the Russian establishment thrives on (look, it's the wicked West out to destroy us).

Vesela - Russian want to control Georgia?? Never in the land of Pig's Pudding - they know it's completely unrealistic. Sorry, but that's daft.

interesting thread and discussion/confusion arising due to the mal-reporting of this conflict by our media really
..it really warns against trusting media sources.
i find the bbc reporting of this woeful, and today on r4 there was long article interviewing unfortunate refugees who fled russian tanks
nothing from the refugees gone in the opposite direction from georgian aggression

at this juncture it might be worth remembering the injustices interference and downright lawlessness usa conducts itself in south and central america
georgian president made major miscalculation imo in choice of allies and innocent people have paid with their lifes..

Vesela, you talk about sabre-rattling - I am CERTAINLY no apologist for Russia, but sabre rattling is precisely what the Georgian president was doing when he made clear his aim (threat) several years ago that he was going to force South Ossetia to be part of Georgia proper, rather than an independent state.

I don't disagree with that, LadyThompson (about the sabre rattling).

When I said control Georgia, I meant politically - surely they don't think that's beyond their power?

OH, I thought you meant take the entire country back as part of the Russian Federation. My mistake! I feel passionately about all this as you can probably tell.

I just think...that how it was - S. Ossetia controlled threeways - was the best solution under the circumstances and I feel that it was Georgia who tried to undermine that, out of sheer opportunism, and I am afraid played straight into the Russian's hands, who were always going to come down hard on this.

It might help to remember that the Baku-Ceyhan pipeline does NOT pass through South Ossetia. Even if S. Ossetia joins Russia tomorrow, the pipeline will still be in Georgian control.

BBBee - Your hurt feelings on my use of the word 'lecturing' aside, do you or don't you get the point re Chechnya?

Right so they feel they have a national interest in engaging the 'theatre'.

I'm amused by the idea that Bush even knew where Georgia was. You can imagine him getting the news from one of his advisors: "Mr Pres-ee-dent, the Russians have invaded Georgia."

"Hot dang, invasionicatin'?! How in heck did them Ruskies get as far as Atlanta? Git our people mannifyin' the barricadations!"

Oh god I find this is SO confusing - I am even MORE confused after reading this thread!

I really don't know the politics of this, but know enough of the press to believe we should not be so gullable to the perspective it presents to us. Teh only think I hace seen was by accident of some 'footage' of a navy boat being destroyed. That's hardly unusual in such a conflict.

Russia may very well have very good reason for engaging here. It's never pleasant, but a pacifist pov is ludecus and just as dangerous. The west will always posture the way it is. That's part of the politics but they may very well be working in cahoots with Russia behind the scenes.

I am utterly astonished by the political naivety of the British press

Deeriguer and Monkeyteousers - totally agree re the naivety (or disingenuity?)of the UK press.