Russian agression in Georgia

[AtheneNoctua]

BBC story

What do you think Western Europe's response should be Russia's invasion of Georgia. This is of course nothing to do with protecting their newly created citizens and everything to do with getting control of the BTC pipeline.

Scary stuff if you ask me. I mean just how much do you want to pay for a liter of petrol. For those who don't know, BTC is the only pipeline which carries oil from the Caspian to Europe and does not pass through Russia. How many taps are we willing to put in Russia's control? I was glad to read Bush has stood up for Georgia, as has Cheney. Why isn't Western Europe doing the same? Are they afraid of Russia? Or do they think it's okay for Russia to go around invading countries so they can control the flow of oil to the West?

if ever there was a reason to throw all our money and resources into our own renewable energy....

i'm so sick of hearing about how it's impractical or how wind turbines are ugly...

feck off! i'll tell you what's ugly - innocent people being murdered for oil - yet again.

Yes, Callisto, so do I. Let's face it, people are going to become more desperate. Religious and political differences are all very well, but water is a basic necessity and concerns everyone, unlike other potential terrorist causes.

The problem with green energy, in particular wind, is the massive amount of money spent on building and maintaining the turbines and infrastructure for very little return, plus when there isn't any wind we need conventional power stations to fall back on. We desperately need nuclear power stations to fill the gap between oil/coal/gas power stations and viable green energy sources. Plus the govt should be investing lots more into getting people to create their own electricity - solar panels, geothermal pipes etc.

The bloody Georgians started this lot. Flying into Russian airspace, what were they thinking?

Who on earth picks a fight with Russia?

Having said that, to say that Russia have over-reacted is an understatement.

The Georgians made this mess and the bloody western governments will have to pick up the pieces. How much is this gonna cost the tax-payer?

Well said, nametaken. Dh follows the Russian and Ukrainian news. Whilst the former may not exactly be unbiased reporting, neither is what we are being fed.

Yes, I'm sure the quality and impartiality of the Russian press is on a par with that of the British press.

The British press may not be politically censored, but it in my experience from living abroad and reading the media from other countries, it does tend to latch on to one perspective of a situation (usually the most sensationalist) and cling to it with bull dog like tenacity to the exclusion of other perspecitives, and therefore to objective reporting. The media in this country has been slow to report the extent to which the Georgian government has been provoking Russia, not that that excuses Russia's reaction, but the situation is not black and white but is in very murky shades of grey.

Provoking Russia by wishing to become a NATO member? Or by allying itself more to the west? Or just by having a pipeline that Russia doesn't control running through it's territory? In reality it doesn't take much to provoke Russia - look how Anglo-Russian relations have frozen up since the Russians did their dirty work on British soil.

What about military exercises that might or might not be border incursions?

Yes, the Western press in general is largely incapable of presenting a situation in other than in very simple, black and white terms - here are the "bad guys" and here are the "good guys". In this case, look at poor little Georgia being invaded by the big neighbouring bully, Russia, led by that arch fiend and former KGB agent Putin.

Although I won't pretend to understand the complexities of the region, it looks very much like Saakashvili took a very poor gamble in moving on Ossetia. The US had been very supportive of Georgia's NATO ambitions (despite reservations from certain Western European states who feared it would antagonise Russia). They had even suggested a timetable of 2009 for when accession might occur and has also provided military support and training for Georgia's army. Good old US - not at all interested in Georgia's strategic reserves and pipeline access of course.

It seems like Saakashvili assumed that the West and the US would support his incursion into South Ossetia which he hoped would bring further reserves under his control and boost his popularity at home. Unfortunately, this seems to have played into Putin's hands who has similarly coveted Georgia's reserves and despised both Saakashvili (for his rapprochment with the West) and the former president Shevednadze (who he viewed as being partly responsible for the dismantlement of the good old USSR and a slur on Mother Russia). Saaskashvili gave Russia the perfect excuse to move on Georgia - of course they've over-reacted but Georgia is not blameless in this. Just very stupid.

I agree thoroughly with nametaken, and I spent a large chunk of time in Georgia and the surrounding region in 2005. It's a bloody awful place, but that's by the by.

Basically, when Georgia broke away from Soviet Union, the area of Southern Ossetia didn't want to go with it! It wanted to stay with Russia, as it was ethnically linked to North Ossetia (still in Russia). In the end, it was a agreed that it would be a tripartite state - controlled jointly by Russia, Georgia and Southern Ossetia itself. This uneasy arrangement kinda worked, until Saakashvili got in, started sabre rattling and wanting to impel the reluctant Southern Ossetians to be part of Georgia proper. So they went in with both feet when Putin was away watching the opening ceremony of the Olympics and everyone was trying to think about workd peace for one lousy day. Idiots. Whilst the Russian reaction has been heavyhanded to say the least, I have no sympathy for the Georgians and they have jeopardised the stability of entire region, with disastrous potential consequences for the rest of us!

Athene, I totally agree with you that Europe is being pathetic vis-a-vis Russia. The only thing I would disagree with is this:

"And not everything in the world can be explained by the US/UK led invasion of Iraq."

Russian foreign policy grew much more hawkish exactly when Iraq was invaded - I presume because it saw the US as having stepped out of the Russia/US status quo.

In my opinion, one of the biggest long-term consequences of the Iraqi invasion is going to be its influence on Russian policy. Still, what's done is done, and the question is not one of the rights and wrongs of the Iraqi invasion but of why we're pussy-footing around now.

Interesting point, Vesela, that US action on Iraq have influenced Russian Foreign policy. But, I think Russia has long been a bully to Europe and anyone else they can manipulate through the turning of the taps. I always figure they learn these things in KGB training and not be watching American Politicians.

Western Europe needs oil that is not controlled by Moscow. It is in our interest to see BTC stay under Georgian control. Russia scares me. I am always amazd by what a little reaction they get from WEstern Europe. Does no one remember world war one... or two?

[scared teeth rattling emoticon]

And Nato policy isn't hakish? From a Russian perspective, the creation of Nato bases in former Warsaw pact countries is aggressive expansionism.

The alternatives to diplomacy pussyfooting around could realistically include a head on confrontation with Russia, which could lead to all out war, bearing in mind the Russian lack of preoccupation with human rights and civilian casualties. Personally, I don't like that possibility.

Roskva, how can it be expansionism for the Czechs to house a radar base when they joined NATO of their own democratic will? Which was hardly the case with their Warsaw Pact membership...

they have announced a cessation of bombing now..on bbc website (am failed linker)

and athene ww1 and ww2, russia were our allies ..irrc it was the germans japs italians we were fighting..
i dont get your point

as long as our (western industrialised world) economies are carbon fuelled we will be held to ransom / or more likely, will try and control by force ourselves the nations that can supply it..

hence the unpopular illegal war(s) we are fighting now

plus although the Czechs and other ex-WP countries were desperate to join NATO after the fall of communism, it still took 10 years, all told. That's not very hawkish on NATO's part... not to mention its reluctance (or rather German and French reluctance) to cement closer ties with Ukraine and Georgia.

It's the German attitude to Russia that's the most frustrating. I'd hoped things would get better once Schroeder left, but not much.

Agreed with nametaken and LadyThompson.

I must be listening to the news reports wrong (am v. tired at the moment so easily done.)

As far as I am understanding South Ossetians(sp) consider themselves Russian and are currently fleeing to Russia. So Georgia are in the wrong here? Yet everyone is against Russia going in to protect the South Ossetians? I really need to pay a bit more attention to find out why Georgia is not being seen to be the aggressor rather than Russia. And the West has a cheek going on about dangerous Russia, at least S.O. is near Russia as opposed to...say...Iraq.

Don't poke the bully and then cry because he whacks you one.

See my post above. The Russians have gone way overboard, but the Georgians were foolish (some might say downright in the wrong) to have started it, and start it they most certainly did.