The Rich According to the Guardian

[Judy1234]

www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008/aug/04/workandcareers.executivesalaries

Well Riven, it seems like that with some of the more emetic columnists. But jobbing freelance journalism doesn't pay well (which is why it isn't my sole job).

RE Cuba - exactly edam and LT. Former Yugoslavia also suffered from a lot of propaganda and everyone falls for it hook line and sinker. Both Cuba and Former Yugoslavia flawed yes, but fairer? Probably. We all want to live in a Capitalist society because we are led to believe we really have the chance to get rich, and get rich quick, but of course much of that is a lie too. it is possible in a minority of cases, but Capitalism relies on a large percentage of the population having very little for the minority to have so much, so it is pretty impossible for everyone to do as well as the top 1%.

Dittany, it wasn't much of a democracy in Cuba before they overthrew the old regime in the revolution.

They wanted a fairer society which, broadly, I think they got. I don't think it's perfect, but it's more equitable...

And just because I can choose from 37 dairy spreads in the supermarket and vote for Brown, Cameron or Clegg, I'm not sure it gives me an infinite amount more liberty than the Cubans.

Dittany, I just don't get your strong views re tax avoidance. Tax avoidance means not paying tax when you don't have to. It is completely legal. It doesn't mean cheating or tax evasion, it means optimising your affairs so that you don't pay tax that you don't have to.

One of my assistants was talking to me today about the report in the paper this morning that Gordon Brown is thinking of suspending stamp duty to kickstart the housing market. we talked about whether it was worth delaying her potential purchase (and risk losing it) or going ahead now. Isn't that a legitimate thing that anyone would do? If you knew that in 3 weeks time you didn't have to pay stamp duty, would you wait 3 weeks or would you say "you know what, paying tax is my civic duty, so I'll pay over shed loads of stamp duty that I may not need to".

For the record, I do think that paying tax is a social duty and pay all mine up with (reasonably) good grace. But I also have someone who advises me on where I don't need to pay it (for example, as someone said earlier, salary sacrifices can be made out of bonuses into pension funds). I don't think that is sneaky in any way.

The concern I have with both PT's article and some of the views on this thread is that viewing "the rich" (even "bankers" or "lawyers") as a single group with homogenous views and a single outlook and set of values - indeed with an identical route to riches, approach to money and long term aspirations - is lazy and insulting - as lazy and insulting as taking a view on "the poor", or "people on benefits" or whatever.

I very much agree with ScummyMummy's post.

Anchovy. I agree with you.

Dittany - I think the issue is that income tax is only paid on earned income - the billionaires (if typical) will be getting their income from buying and selling investments, which is not within the definition of earned income but investment income and as such are subject to capital gains tax, not income tax.

So not paying income tax is a complete red herring. The intersting thing to know is what taxes they are paying!

I did think it was an interesting article and (based on many conversations I've had in almost 20 years of working in the City) I don't for a moment think that PT had to misquote/selectively quote to make her points.

She might have mentioned the amount of volunteering/fund-raising stuff that City firms tend to get involved in though. We are not completely in ivory towers!

oh man, sixspot. You've just reminded me of a truly dreadful pantomime my kids and I had to sit through, put on by employees of pricewaterhousecooper! They were laudably trying to entertain the underprivileged state primary school kiddiwinks but they were bloody awful. Their singing, acting and engagement of children skills were utterly lamentable. Luckily there were some brilliant critics from a school for children with emotional and behavioural difficulties sitting behind me keeping me entertained with extremely rude, loud (but accurate) comments about the performance.

Scummy .

It's not all as bad as that, honest. The annual Herbert Smith Christmas party for Refuge was a riot (and I don't mean that in a bad way).

And my own mentoring sessions in Tower Hamlets were, y'know, seminal .

Um, I think that if there's one thing that Soapy knows about, it's tax...

Sixpot - no tax not my forte!

Some of the wealth comes from interest income and divis, but the big money tends to comes from capital gains. Buying and selling companies/properties etc. That's capital gains not income tax.

I bet your mentoring was fab, sixspot.
The pantso was a good opportunity for me to explain to my boys and their little school pals that everybody has different skills and these people were very good at making money but not so good at acting and isn't it nice to let people have a go at stuff they're not very good at just for fun sometimes? Plus they were thrilled to learn so many great new swear words from the children at the EBD school (as was I!).

I do know rather more than I care to, at times, about dividends and bonds though

The seriously wealthy don't hold the investments directly though Dittany - so they don't get the interst or divis directly, they pass into an investment vehicle. When the cash comes out of those investment vehicles, it is usually as a capital gain and so not subject to income tax.

None of you need to worry. The serious rich pay huge more taxes than any of you. As soon as they buy a yacht they pay more tax than some of you will pay in a life time. If they don't pay tax here they pay it where they're domiciled. If you want to fall for left wing propaganda you can but in practice they pay much more tax and probably too much. Doesn't matter where or when they pay it and even if it's just the 10% flat rate in Bulgaria, they are still paying more so don't worry about it.

Managing your affairs so you obtain tax reliefs, claim single persons allowances etc is nothing to do with tax evasion. All of us except perhaps nuns giving 100% of their income up or whatever are tax avoiding and you would be silly not to. it is expected that you do.

Why don't our Cuba lovers move there if they think it's so great then?

On tax avoidance I just don't understandthe objection. Presumably you claim tax credits somethintg I have never been entitled to. Are you saying that's cheating the state?

Er, they don't allow you to, Xenia I think that's a rather specious remark and adds nothing to your argument.

Left wing propaganda? As opposed to the right wing propaganda you insist on trotting out?

Sorry, but you don't live in the real world.