The Rich According to the Guardian

[Judy1234]

www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008/aug/04/workandcareers.executivesalaries

But, xenia, you really are so very out of touch that it's embarrassing at times. You admitted it yourself. You are in such a different world that you can no longer imagine most of the - often difficult - situations that many people are in.

Actually Xenia, communism worked rather well in former Yugoslavia until Tito died. There was neither extreme poverty nor extreme wealth and many look back on that period as a golden age. Especially as now in all the new Balkan States Capitalism has arrived and many people are now suffering chronic poverty.

It is v v v sad how out of touch the people PT and DW spoke with seem to be. That is my major parenting terror- that I could produce children who turn out not to know anything about anything. I cannot believe that there are well educated successful people who genuinely blindly believe that they and they alone are the complete arbiters of their own destiny and that they alone therefore have completely earned and deserve their wonderful lot. And the corollary; that people worse off than them are necessarily lazier, stupider and insufficiently go-getting and therefore deserve to live in poverty. Who on earth has the complete and utter arrogance, ignorance and self absorption to adopt such arguments? It just seems naive in the extreme to deny that where you start out, how much dosh your family has, the kinds of educational expectations and other opportunities you can access, how well supported and loved and emotionally and physically nourished you are and feel, very frequently have an immense bearing on personal, professional and financial outcomes.

Having said that, I'm never sure if I like PT particularly. She is persona non grata in my in laws house because many years ago she spent a day working with my father in law and colleagues on a building site and then wrote an article exposing them all as a bad sexists because they were very deferential and polite and wouldn't trust her with their big boy building toys!

I'm just repeating what our plumber told me. I suspect you need professional access to quite large quantities to make it worthwhile though.

Agree with Scummy re PT. Indefinably annoying in a guardian-y kind of way.

But do we really think the Guardian did not selectively quote. Surely they picked the lines which woudl please guardian readers and discarded the others.

Communism has never worked well even under Tito. But mumsnetters who want those ways can feel free to take the next plane to Cuba or North Korea or whever we think communism might have survived. Has Chavaz achieved it in Venezuela? That might be a nicer place. Petrol is so cheap there.

"We look after people They don't starve. They are very lucky."

How many people do you know who are on benefits, Xenia, and what are their circumstances? "Lucky" is not a word that I would apply to the majority of people I meet who are on benefits. Despite often having many personal strengths and some good things in their lives, many have a very difficult time. i think you might be surprised.

My husband and I are American expats living in the UK and are resident but not domiciled. Until this year that meant we paid full UK taxes on all UK income but none on foreign income (in our case, we have close to no foreign income - a little bit from savings). As of this year, we have to declare all income, regardless of where it is or pay a flat £30,000 tax. We'll definitely be declaring all income!

The US investments are declared in the US - typically we don't have to pay any income tax in the US because the UK and the US have a tax treaty and that's the way it works. Eg, we're not paying into social security (US) at the moment but are paying NI (UK).

Anyway, that's what people are talking about when they talk about domiciled vs non-domiciled which is different than resident vs non-resident. It was, I think, a very easy loophole to exploit in unethical ways - eg you could work it so that you are domiciled in a tax haven and receive income there which wouldn't be taxed by the UK. But now people have to either declare it all or pay the £30k.

'cannot believe that there are well educated successful people who genuinely blindly believe that they and they alone are the complete arbiters of their own destiny and that they alone therefore have completely earned and deserve their wonderful lot. And the corollary; that people worse off than them are necessarily lazier, stupider and insufficiently go-getting and therefore deserve to live in poverty. Who on earth has the complete and utter arrogance, ignorance and self absorption to adopt such arguments? It just seems naive in the extreme to deny that where you start out, how much dosh your family has, the kinds of educational expectations and other opportunities you can access, how well supported and loved and emotionally and physically nourished you are and feel, very frequently have an immense bearing on personal, professional and financial outcomes.'

So, so true.
I also agree, scummymummy, that PT is a bit of a joke. I suspect that (very) deep down she probably has all sorts of insecurities about her life choices.

Well Xenia with all due respect my Dh and many of our friends grew up under communism in former Yugloslavia and i suspect they know a bit better than you if it worked or not. It had huge flaws certainly, but then so does Capitalism [not for you maybe] and overall, people in former Yugoslavia had a better quality of life then than they do now.

Agree completely with Scummymummy - especially this bit:

I cannot believe that there are well educated successful people who genuinely blindly believe that they and they alone are the complete arbiters of their own destiny and that they alone therefore have completely earned and deserve their wonderful lot. And the corollary; that people worse off than them are necessarily lazier, stupider and insufficiently go-getting and therefore deserve to live in poverty. Who on earth has the complete and utter arrogance, ignorance and self absorption to adopt such arguments? It just seems naive in the extreme to deny that where you start out, how much dosh your family has, the kinds of educational expectations and other opportunities you can access, how well supported and loved and emotionally and physically nourished you are and feel, very frequently have an immense bearing on personal, professional and financial outcomes.

And a copper wire theft was big news here in the past week or so. But we're in rural Alabama at the moment, so y'know, take that info with a grain of salt.

hee hee - just saw that findtheriver quoted the whole thing too.

It's brilliantly written; you need to send something into the Guardian or write a full response to the article or something, Scummy.

But SM you're fallen into the trap of relative poverty. We will all be worse off than others, such is life, but those on benefits are much better off than people who don't have food, people in Zimbabwe, in war zones, or even near my island where the average pay is 8 US dollars a day for the locals.

A difficult time is something people at all income levels have. it's more to do with your internal psyche than much else or it's external circumstances which make things dreadful regardless of class or income. I don't expect anyone to be particularly sympathetic to me because I earn a lot but I doubt many people have had the abuse, divorce, mother's ilness, death, father's illness, death stuff all crammed into the last few years for me and that's just as difficult for me with my income as for anyone else who is worse off. And I'm not asking for sympathy but the things which make things hard whether you're in hte jungle hut council estate or suburban estate are pretty commmon to all and not related to money.

What a stupid article. She berates the bankers for not knowing the fine detail of how taxes are distributed (do you!?) and assuming that public money is misspent but she admits herself at the beginning of the article that things have got worse for the poor under NuLab's version of socialism. Doesn't that rather prove their point?

but Xenia everyone struggles with beravements, divorces, illnesses, etc. It is just most of them have the added stress of struggling to make ends meet too. To see my mother wasting away in a care home for the last two years of her life [after we cared for her for many years at home] was made doubly horrific because we could not afford a better place for her with better care.

I disagree. I think the big scale upsets in life can partly be got through due to the support of others who recognise tragic events and offer sympathy or support. They can also provide a great personal spur to some people.

On teh other hand, the unseen routine grind of struggling with cash, living in very poor accommodation, not being able to take a break from relentless tough times can be much much harder to bear.

It's not simply a case of 'internal psyche'. You are seeing things, naturally enough, very much from your own point of view.

it's more to do with your internal psyche than much else or it's external circumstances which make things dreadful regardless of class or income.

disagree again, xen. think of the worst thing(s) that have happened to you and imagine if you had been through the same thing facing possible social exclusion and isolation and with no money. It would be worse.

I do take your point re relative poverty but still think you might be surprised to see how some of our most vulnerable people are expected to live in 21st century UK.

Thanks jj and ftr.

I think Xenia is absolutely right than when it comes to the major life events - serious illness, bereavement, divorce - then income is no protection against human suffering. There are some things that are a great leveller. If you lose a child, does it make the pain any less just because you are well off? Of course not.
I think the difference is with the less serious things, which although not huge in themselves, have the potential to grind you down over the months and years. Lying awake worrying about how you're going to pay the heating bill, feeling your heart sink when your dc's wear their shoes out and you havent got the money for new ones, wanting another baby but having to put it off because you need to work and can't afford another lot of childcare..... These are the things that affect ordinary people and make life really tough. If you are fortunate to be born into a well off situation, or you marry into one, or you simply have the good fortune to do a well paid job (which doesnt necessarily equate to being highly skilled or working hard) then yes, it definitely makes life far more comfortable.

"I doubt people have had the abuse, divorce,
mother's illness, father's illness, death stuff (??) crammed into the last few years". Why? Why is it only you suffering from these type of events? Don't you read the posts on MN? They are full of illnesses and death and poverty and sick children and domestic violence and affairs. Suffering isn't exclusive to you. I don't understand that post.

I just meant I'd quite a few of those things all at once. I wasn't asking for sympathy and my point was those are the stressful life events (along with bankruptcy I suppose, death of a child etc) and that living on a low, middle or high income does not insulate you or help you in terms of the effects of those kinds of events. I don't think the sadness is any the less whether you can afford the funeral costs or not.

And let's not forget in studies the Nigerians were found to be the happiest people on earth and they're not exactly rich. In other words the day to day situation isn't what makes you happy or sad as long as you've enough food which everyone in the UK can have.

The poor will always be with us and nothing is certain but death and taxes. These old saying are very true and whether that's poor in UK 1600s terms, 1880s or 2008ees, they are still poor except these days they rarely die of hunger therefore they are better off and are probably jolly glad they live here rather than in Russia or China or Argentina or Zimbabwe. So great is the provision for the poor in this country that people flock from abroad to benefit from it. perhaps we need propaganda videos for the poor of the type you get in China telling them how lucky they are, showing what they would get if they were without work in say Chad.

I agree that sadness is felt the same. I don't think anyone would say that rich people don't hurt the same (although sending young childrn to boarding school shows a certain lack of emotion , I jest).

But there is significant additonal stress and problems are made worse when money is scarce.

And I agree that the UK is an ok place to be for a poor person if you look at the whole world picture.

the guardian, what's that again????

Xenia, sometimes it's the way you word things. You said "I doubt people have had...." Not "lately I have had to cope with..."

Xenia - do you (deep down) believe most of the sentiments in that article?

You are a known advocate of women making a bigger success of their careers/jobs than they often do. Do you therefore, by extension, feel that people in general, of both sexes, should make more of their lives and that they should all start their own businesse, work harder etc????