The Rich According to the Guardian

[Judy1234]

www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008/aug/04/workandcareers.executivesalaries

"I wouldn't put my money into offshore accounts oi, no. That's unethical and greedy".

I've had a number of offshore accounts. This was to cover the fact that I was non-UK domiciled for tax purposes due to the rather boring fact that I neither worked nor lived in the UK (I did, of course, pay taxes in the country I was domiciled in). Nothing remotely unethical or greedy about that.

Is your statement that it is unethical and greedy a comment that it would be so for you or that is the case for everyone?

"I see 'lawful tax avoidance' (and what a cynical phrase that is) on a par with claiming unemployment benefit while working". No they are completely different - one is legal and one is illegal. Did you see my post earlier about stamp duty. If the govt are going to suspend stamp duty for a period, do you complette now and pay thousands in stamp duty or complete a week later and not pay the stamp duty? Your choice? I know what I would do and I don't think it remotely unethical - I call it financial prudence.

If you lived and worked abroad and had your money in a local bank account, that is an entirely different matter to living and working in the UK but hiding your money abroad in order to avoid making the same contribution as every else who lives he is obliged to make. Just because something is legal doesn't automatically make it moral.
I find the sight of the rich congralating themselves on their fundraising events for "the poor" (while wearing £10K dresses and diamonds and eating massive expensive meals) while also congratulating themselves on avoiding paying the tax which funds the services the poor need (health, welfare, schools) thoroughly unedifying.

Anchovy - I think the government are toying with the idea of merely defering stamp duty in order to kick start the housing market. Buy now and pay the stamp duty later - on disposal I suspect.

I hate stamp duty - it's my least favourite tax. It's anti freedom of movement.

But there must be plenty of non-doms like me who still pay income tax...

I am non-dom because I am not yet a citizen (although plan to be soon). In my personal circumstances I am employed locally and still pay income tax.

So far the only thing being non-dom means that any interest I earn on my bank account of my 'home country' is not taxed in UK, but is in 'home country'. And also if I die then my 'home country'assets are taxed under their laws, not UK laws (my assets here are still under UK laws).

Excuse my ignorance too, but with tax havens, surely the tax that is not being paid is on the interest? Because any earnings within the UK would still be subject to income tax?

They are merely taking advantage of tax legislation. It seems to me to be childish and naïve to complain about them doing it.
If you think that the effect of these laws are unfair or immoral, why isn't your ire directed at the law-makers?

Anything written by Polly Toynbee about rich people was always going to be slating. She gets on my tits actually - there is something about champagne socialism that makes me feel quite ill.

Anything written by Polly Toynbee about rich people was always going to be slating. She gets on my tits actually - there is something about champagne socialism that makes me feel quite ill.

But Swedes, don't you think that Stamp Duty is such a clever tax? It's the only tax that I can think of, off the top of my head, where the tax-payer gets an immediate and tangible benefit from paying it i.e. a real incentive to pay tax!

Useless fact: it was dreamt up by a member of the public as the result of a competition to invent a new tax.

Tax avoidance in the way I described above is lawful and morally right. If you start from the principle that tax is theft then all avoidance which does not break the law is perfectly in order. I just donm't see how you draw a line within a range of actions which are lawful and say this one is fine - Mr X ensuirng he and his wife earn £5 rather than him earning £10 because the tax rates if they both work are lower and Mr Y saying I am allowed by law to set my travel expenses against my tax therefore I will claim them or Miss Y using an ISA because that aviods tax or Miss Z investing in something you get tax relief on. The Government distorts our behaviour by the tax system as we don;t have simpler lower flat taxes unfortunately but it's not wrong to take lawful steps to avoid tax.

I don; thave a penny of savintgs because they all went to my chidren's father on the divorce so I ceratinly have no money hidden anyway. Now yo umight regard that as morally wrong - man (or more often woman) provides sex for 20 years and in return when they abuse you they get all your money - divorce payouts as immoral earnings may be.

Wasbipeanut - I'll third that! I can't stand PT either.

I agree with purits that some posters are directing their anger at the wrong people! No, of course just because something is legal doesn't make it morally right. Adultery is not illegal. Some people totally disagree with it, others don't. That's a moral issue. It really is blurring the issue to keep bringing the law into it, when people are clearly acting within the law. If you disagree with aspects of taxation, fair enough. There's certainly plenty that I disagree with! But that doesn't make it unlawful!

The government steals from you and it's ok because they are 're-distributing wealth'.

A robber steals from you and even if he is giving the money to his sick granny he is locked up.

Stamp Duty is quite often a tax on misery too.

Divorce. Large family home sold in order to finance two separate smaller homes. Red Gordon gets a percentage from the buyer of the former matriomial home, a percentage from the purchase of the home which will house the wife and the children and a percentage from house which will house the husband. Kerching, kerching, kerching.

End of cohabitation. Two people decide to go their separate ways, one remaining in the home buying out the other. Stamp duty must be paid on the half of the house. Kerching.

Old person can no longer manage their house with a large garden and stairs and needs to move into sheltered accommodation. House is sold and buyer pays Stamp duty. Old person also pays stamp duty on the purchase of their sheltered flat. Kerching, kerching.

Young man who bought his first flat two years ago has just been made redundant in York. He finds a new job in Leeds. Sells flat (buyer pays stamp duty) and buys a new flat in Leeds and pays stamp duty. Kerching, kerching.

rebelmum, I'm sure then that you would be quite happy to see the poor die of cancer then rather than leaching off your taxes by receiving NHS care. After all, if they (or you or anyone you know) accepts NHS care then they are using stolen money, by your reckoning.
I have said over and over again that his law (unique to the UK) is wrong and unfair and that non doms who actually live and work here should be forced to pay the same taxes as everyone else.

Talking about inventing new taxes, I've just invented a cracker.
Everyone has to pay a flat-rate resident tax. This represents how much it costs on average, per person, to run public services like health / education / law / etc. There will be extra income from the existing taxes (income tax, CGT etc) but these can now be at a lower rate to encourage and reward hard work and entrepreneurship.
Obviously, some people will not be able to afford the RT and so will get a (partial) exemption. However, it will highlight that these people are not, economically, pulling their weight i.e. that they are being subsidised by full taxpayers and ought to be chuffing grateful instead of jealous! What do you think?

Excellent purits. When are you standing for Government?

Taxation in this country is overly complex. Apparently it costs more to collect Capital Gains Tax than the exchequer receives in Capital Gains Tax.

Did someone further down this thread say the poor give more to charity? How can people come out with these little gems without supporting evidence?

I hear what you are saying about Stamp Duty, Swedes, but in the interim these people are getting the benefit of property ownership (security of tenure, capital growth). The gain is worth the pain, otherwise we would all rent instead. A clever tax.

purits, I think that one's been done before. They called it the poll tax. Now I think it's very fair, but times have moved on to progressive taxation ...

MsDemeanor I'm sure then that you are happy with the murder of 1M people in Iraq. I question your morality.

Goodness me, Googling is very easy you know. You might try it instead of crossly demanding other people fill in the gaps in your knowledge.
Poorer people donate a greater percentage of their income than richer ones.www.guardian.co.uk/society/2001/dec/21/voluntarysector.fundraising
This is the person behind the study
www.instituteforphilanthropy.org.uk/w7Co61fj7QCXwab9e3To5nGs/linkto.aspx

So, Rebelmum, with no wicked taxation, how exactly do you think the poor, and the children of the poor will be educated and given medical treatment?

Whilst I think tax in this country is too complicated and, at the momentm too high, I can't agree with the principle that tax is theft.

All Uk residents should pay a basic level of tax - ragardless of the fact that they opt out of some services by choosing private healthcare or education for their children. Their streets will still be lit, their bins emptied etc. Furthermore if they keel over from a heart attack it won/t be a private ambulance that comes out to them.

I find this idea that tax's are just for the little people absolutely obscene.