The Rich According to the Guardian

[Judy1234]

www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008/aug/04/workandcareers.executivesalaries

P.S I am not suggesting that the people referred to in the OP are cheats, as it seems that they are acting lawfully.
I am just making the point that anyone who does cheat, either by claiming benefits fraudulently or evading tax unlawfully is equally in the wrong.

there's a big difference between avoidance (legal) and evasion (illegal) like there is between 'working the system' (legal) and cheating it (illegal) for benefits.

If you want to bring morals into it, then that's a totally different thing and depends on your own point of reference!

you wouldn't be able to avoid tax by doing that though as you would have been taxed here already

From everything I have read in the FT and other papers, I agree with SWC that taxing non-doms will result in net loss to the exchequer.

It is easy and natural to feel envious. But it is not sensible to allow envy to cloud one's judgement.

Agree with you oi.

Whether or not we agree ethically with the people described in the OP is one thing.
It muddles the issue to describe it as unlawful when it isnt.
FWIW I would feel deeply uncomfortable and greedy about ploughing tons of dosh into offshore accounts. But my feelings dont mean it's unlawful.

I was trying to get these people with the strange views about tax to tell me what they think they are happy about and what they regard as immoral. The law is very simply - avoidance is normal, almost a duty and we all do it. Evasion is illegal.

So the ones who think avoidance is wrong do you agree with (a) claiming child benefit (b) tax credits (C) the single person's allowance (d) setting any deductible expenses against your personal tax like charitable donations (e) splitting allowances between husband and wife so you pay tax e.g 2 of you earn £20k and pay 20% tax rather than one £40k paying 40% tax (f) paying into a pension and claiming tax relief (g) buying a house just under the £250k stamp duty ban ensying the £1000 you pay over that is for the carpets. In other words what do you regard as immoral in terms of lawfully using the tax system to claim allowances to which you're entitled to?

Woudl you let people who work alone trade through a company if that means they pay less tax (the government encouraged this a few years ago by giving them lower tax rates and then changed the rules to catch them out a year or two later). Do you think the £50 you can have spent on the work Christmas party per head should not be claimed?

To make a comparison with benefits fraud which is unlawful does rather muddy the waters I think.

it's been implied a fair few times

thing is, the government creates these rules...if they ever want to close the gaps they can (try). In the meantime, anyone, me, you, a nondom is entitled to try and use the rules to their benefit.

If they want a loophole closing, they close it. They've left a lot of this open as they want to encourage these wealthy non doms to come to this country and spend money here etc.

Only because of political pressure was anything announced about them now (nondoms). It was really little to do with raising extra revenue but more about trying to create a positive news story (quick, easy story guaranteed to get labour supporters salivating).

Well that article confirms what I had suspected all along. Most of those top earners are pig-headed, ignorant prats who have blagged their way to the top and are driven to "work hard" by greed. Who wants to bother spending time with one's family when there's hard cash to be earned?

Thankfully most of the people in this country are not so pig ignorant which is why 90% of us earn below £37k a year (which I for one was very gratified to learn).

(and they nicked the idea from the Tories who thought the proposal might fund their inheritance tax idea! (though I'm not sure their calcs would have worked out!))

'Do you have any of your money in offshore tax havens as a matter of interest Xenia? Same question to you smc. If you don't I really can't see why you're bothering to defend it. '

• sorry, but I think this is totally out of order. The personal financial situations of anyone on MN are their own business, no one elses.

I also dislike the implication that someone shouldnt be 'allowed' to argue a particular viewpoint unless they have first hand experience of it. Does that mean that if I am a working taxpayer then I'm not allowed to take a view on the welfare state? Or that if I am in receipt of benefits I'm not allowed to have a view on employment? Dangerous, dictatorial thinking.

I agree with you SWC and FTR. The idea that you have to have personal experience of an issue to have a valid opinion is a bit dangerous.

Take murder for instance. I don't have any personal experience of murder. I have never murdered anyone, nor have I been murdered (for the avoidance of doubt). I don't feel I need any personal experience of murder to say that it is wrong.

I see 'lawful tax avoidance' (and what a cynical phrase that is) on a par with claiming unemployment benefit while working. I am interested to know if teh anti-taxers agree with that.

Pointy - Claiming unemployment benefit whilst working is illegal; so it's not the same thing at all.

Polly Toynbee is a champagne socialist on around 150k a year. Perhaps she could donate her salary if she is so concerned. Of course people don't want to part with their cash. I don't want to part with my hard earned cash. You assume this redistribition of wealth is fair and reasonable and that bureaucrats don't claim the largest share. With 30,000 NHS manaagers and 1 in 3 poeople working for the Government. All the second homes and new kitchens we fund for politicians, not to mention the money they steal through expenses. Or the 1M we have killed in Iraq (mostly women and children. If you blindly and willingly hand over a 1/3 of your income in tax you deserve not to be paid at all if you ask me. We are getting good services, 1 in 5 children cannot read, schools are failing we kill around 10,000 people in hospital with infections and now there are reports of rats and mice! All this while doctors salary increases swallowed HALF of NHS Budget. If you think throwing money at the Government without question is a good there is something wrong with your moral compass. At the end of the day this money is stolen from people. If a robber puts a gun to your head and takes your money he is locked up. Well he would be if there were enough prisons built..

Just because something is legal doesn't mean it is moral. Raping your wife was legal for men until a very short time ago. Didn't mean it was reasonable. The law on non doms is wrong. No other country allows this sort of tax avoidance. It is clearly and manifestly unfair.