Work for dole

[ReallyTired]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7514513.stm

I think that proposals like these are long over due. Although I think that if you make people work full time for their benefits they won't have time to look for job.

Prehaps they should work three days a week and look for a job two days a week.

There are people who for good reasons cannot work full time, but certainly could do something part time.

no stigma attached to accepting handouts??

Well you obviously live in a nicer world that I do......

Having children while already on the dole - yes there are those that do it deliberately - however, you only need to look through the MN archives to see how incredibly common unplanned (even when protection HAS been used) pregnancies are!

I say why work in a crap job when quite often you'll earn LESS than what you received in benefits????

I worked in a crap job and it made me ill .

I am a care assistant at night doing 13 hour shifts 4 nights a week. I hate it but I have to do it, I feel better doing it as it gets me out of the house and I feel much better knowing I'm working for my money rather than just taking what I can get for doing nothing.

mamadiva - that was the work I was doing (slightly shorter shifts, but up to 5/6 nights a week sometimes just so that we didn't have to claim any benefits, and because at minimum wage 3 nights a week hardly made a difference to the bank balance).

I didn't mind the work (too much) but the hours I was working, and the harassment I was at the receiving (plus usually only getting 2/3hrs sleep before having to look after the DS's for the rest of the day, then doing another shift that night, and repeating the process ad nauseam made me ill. Not just physically, but mentally, my children suffered too as a result.

I also lost 2 1/2 stone in the space of a year - which sounds great - except I went from 9 1/2 stone to 7 stone.

FAQ- Yeah that sounds tough. I'm a bit luckier in that respect. DP starts work at 8am so I come home at 7.40 and he walks to work I get changed then walk to DS's nursery for the day and I come home and sleep. I refused to do more nights, can't afford it on the nursery front and I'd end up ill. I get alot of abuse too as is a Demntia home so get attacked etc isn't nice is it. The things we do for money eh? I had a black eye last week from being clubbed with a walking stick!!!

There must be work out there: the Eastern Europeans seem to have no problems finding jobs in this country.

purits - yes they take extremely long hours, cramped living conditions, and below minimum wage in many circumstances.......

There doesn't seem to be much emphaisis on being responsible for yourself and the world around you. Soceity has become very out for what it can get rather than put in something . For instance people round my way complaining that the council has asked them to recycle thier rubbish correctly. We are benefitting from doing things like that. And then last week on the news about the oyster cards not working , isn't it disgusting how the machine broke down etc - it was just a machine that broke down once and everyone got a free ride, its not that bad is it? But it is a blame culture and an I want whats owed culture. Its not healthy. TV and Media that promotes silly old tarts getting loads of cash for doing nothing, footballers wives, Talentless X factor Karaokes getting record contracts.

We all know its a gross injustice between rich and poor and there are just as many crook aristos as there are dole spongers but its depressing when there is little encouragement for life enhancement.

Its nice to be nice and what benefits others benefits you. I think the govt scheme should be good and it should be sold to us better. People want to feel valued in soceity so I hope no-one is made to feel exploited by this scheme.

"I worked in a crap job and it made me ill"

I worked in a good job and it made me ill - big deal - I bet you don't feel sorry for me.

Why wouldn't I feel sorry for you??

There are many areas where I totally disagree with Xenia but I think she's spot-on with her comment "Why should people who have fallen on hard times not work for dole when so many people work very hard at the minimum wage? What is so special about the dole claimers that they can sit at home doing nothing and be paid by the very hard work through the taxes of those on the minimum wage."

No reasonable person is expecting those with small/several dc or carers/disabled people to take any job available but for those with no such impediments to work, why should they be entitled to live like parasites off those who do buckle down and do the unpleasant, thankless jobs in this life?

I couldn't help noticing on my return to the UK recently that 4/5 of the staff in our M&S cafe are foreign, while the druggies and beggars are home-grown. If life in Britain is so awful, I wonder why people flock to come here.

FAQ

'I say why work in a crap job when quite often you'll earn LESS than what you received in benefits????'

Because we live in a country where we are 'supposed' to take care of ourselves unless we are in dire circumstances through no fault of our own and need a safety net. Because we teach our children through our behaviour - even if the wage is low, we are demonstrating that we go out and EARN money rather than being GIVEN it. Because by opting out we start a downward spiral that carries on through future generations of living off the state. Even though the screwed up benefit system means that in same cases, people have less incentive than others to work, does not given people the god given right to CHOOSE.

A few years ago, I was in a fairly low paid job and decided to think about how to improve my circumstances. I took the plunge and returned to education (which by the way, has LOTS of financial incetntives especially if you have dependents). Over the past years I have slowly moved up the academic ladder and am now a teacher.

Certainly prior to becoming a student, if I had had more children I would have had more in my pocket than by working part time with one children. But that is in the short term, and I figured that living off benefits for the next few years would leave me in a poor position for when I retire and leave little for me to help out my son if for example he wanted to go to university. My years as a student were a nightmare - it was exhausting, stressful, involved a long commute every day and very little time left to spend with my son. But now I'm in a job I love and am secure and happy in the knowledge that I alone can support myself and my son and that most importantly I am a positive role model.

Benefits for some (not all people) is the easy option. Put nothing into your working life and you'll get absolutely nothing out of it.

'FAQ

'I say why work in a crap job when quite often you'll earn LESS than what you received in benefits????''

But I think FAQ has a point in this. And I speak as a family who would be better off claiming the dole, but we don't and never have (wouldn't rule it out if there were no other option, however).

If there is to be reform in the system, why can it not be in making work ALWAYS better financially than being on benefits?

Because until that time comes, there will be people who think 'work smarter, not harder'.

And I don't disagree that they have a point, especially as someone who also went through having tax credits fuck up our claim, come back three years later demanding thousands we didn't have despite my informing them of their mistakes immediately, and being left to live under the poverty line when they cut us off for months until the matter was sorted out.

Living with the possibility of that hanging over your head when you are already living about as hand to mouth, paycheque to paycheque, as it gets is an enormous stress on the working poor, on top of having your costs to living rising and your taxes rising and rising to the point where you really wonder why you beat your head against a stone wall.

I agree expat - there is a real difference between the situation you describe and people who make absolutely no effort whatsover to get back into work. I still believe that there are a lot of people out there who choose to continue having children whilst on benefits with no intentions of working. As I said in my earlier post - at one stage in my life, if I had had more children I would have had more money coming in week to week than working part time with my one child. So what stopped me? Quite simply, my pride. Sounds corny I know, but I was brought up with that ethos. The problem with reforming the system is that I believe that people would have to be substantially better off working than being on benefits, even in jobs that do not require a particular skill/trade. The people with the mindset that work just isn't for them, will not be tempted back without a big carrot. Certainly the majority of the families that I work with through multi-agencies at school have absolutely no intentions of going back to work - it simply does not occur to them to even consider it, even with the lure of extra money. I believe therefore that our attitudes have a lot to do with it and the apparent acceptance that its ok to not work.

I know the solution is not an easy one, and that for some people there is little choice to make. But I also know that there are some people out there who are damn lazy and are a drain on this country's resources and that needs to be stopped.

but sheryl - you must see that if someone is barely scraping by on their benefits, the prospect of going to work 40+ hours a week and having even less to live on isn't really one that's going to fill them with hope of a more successful future....

No FAQ, not in the short term, but surely in the long term, you are better off working. What are these people going to do when they retire? Who do they think will look after them then? I know several people (all single mums ) who have used their time 'on benefits' to retrain once their children are at school - they see their situations as short term whereas so many families remain on benefits for years and years with no plans to go back to work.

As I've said before, a close family member was faced with the scenario you describe, and chose the work option. Over the years, she has combined working and studying and is now in a better paid job with prospects just at the time that her children are nearing school/college leaving age, when she would have lost all of her benefits had she not worked. It seems that people expect instant gratification and expect it all to happen straight away without any effort. I can't believe that people have the mindset that they wouldn't even consider working/training at all - surely they can see that when their children leave school/college they'll be in an even worse scenario having not graced a workplace for years?

yes of course in the long term chances are you're going to be better off.

but if in the short term you can't afford to pay your bills, or feed your family - you're not likely to rush out and find a job are you??

So how about retraining? I did my degree with several people on benefits who had families and the financial incentives meant they were better off when studying.

haven't read all the posts, haven't got time, but I think this idea is long overdue. fed up of paying for lazy gits just wanting to doss around 'pretending' to be seeking employment on their JSA. it's not right.
I know someone on JSA with his own home and car (WTF!?!) how can they afford it??? and no he didn't win the lottery.
alot of folk on the dole are genuinely on the dole looking for work yet there are others abusing the system completely. weed them out!

You can't get a mortgage if you are on JSA so he must have bought his home before he started claiming.

Or he's cheating.

Ditto the car. They don't give car loans to people with no job.

'What are these people going to do when they retire? Who do they think will look after them then?'

In all honestly, MANY of the working poor have nothing saved at all. Because they can't afford to. We certainly can't.

I have come to see that 'retirement', for most people, is just not going to exist. It is for the most part a failed experiment of the 2nd half of the 20th century.

People live so long, there just won't be the funds to support a vast segment of the population not working for 30+ years.

Our plan is to work till we drop and can physically no longer do it due to infirm health.

It used to be, people didn't live long after they stopped working. Those times will be here again soon.

The provision for retirement is a whole new ball game expat! Perhaps we should start another thread. Again, there are divisions - there are many who simply don't earn enough to put away into a pension, and there are others who THINK they don't. I have friends who insist that they can't pay into a monthly pension because of their outgoings. They can't see that Sky TV and a loan for a new car are luxuries not neccessities. Hence why I forgo Sky TV and drive a clapped out Ford!

Well, we've got Freeview and drive a P-reg Vauxhall Astra.

There's no money to save.

And tbh, for some working poor folks, SkyTV is one of the few pleasures they have in life.

The way so many pensions have been mismanaged, and still are, it's no wonder people are mistrustful of paying into a lot of them.

They could go to the library which is free and not have a TV. I don't watch TV (although we do have a set and the children have Sky +). If I were poor I wouldn't need TV. having a TV and paying for its licence makes peopel surely better off than those who can't afford to buy a set, buy a sky sub and buy a licence and use the electricity to run it. Things that really are luxuries are regarded as essentials so often. People have got too used to things like that. If they spend the evenings reading free library books about how to better themselves rather than watching dire TV programmes they might do better.

Why do you assume they're watching dire tv programmes.

They might be watching worthy self-improvement programmes for all you know.

I don't object to the principle of people working, of course everyone who is able to and can do usefully ought to. I believe in the principle of "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs". That first bit "from each according to his abilities" is bloody important, no Marxist believes it is an acceptable option to be a parasite (not that I'm a Marxist but I object ot some of the idiotic nonsense pretending that it is somehow left wing to promote laziness. It has never been left wing).

I just believe that the labourer is worthy of his hire. (ooh, I'm all quotes tonight.) And that means if people are working, they should jolly well be paid wages, not bleeding benefits.

I also think that one thing that never gets addressed is the deep systemic psychological help that these lazy gits need actually, to get back into work. When I think of someone like my xp, who has some kind of mental block about doing an honest day's work, I wouldn't inflict him on an unsuspecting employer. Many people who are long term unemployed need a massive boost of self-confidence and help in re-building self-esteem and while I agree that working and earning their own living can be instrumental in helping them discover that, no-one's ever going to convince me that using them as drones will. And the world being what it is, I doubt if real, meaningful work will be on offer to these people, and that's what they (and society) really need.