Work for dole

[ReallyTired]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7514513.stm

I think that proposals like these are long over due. Although I think that if you make people work full time for their benefits they won't have time to look for job.

Prehaps they should work three days a week and look for a job two days a week.

There are people who for good reasons cannot work full time, but certainly could do something part time.

"Childminders are paid for by the parents of the children they look after not the tax payer"

"Isn't there a portion(up to 80%?) of childcare costs paid for by gov't in some cases?"

YES! That is precisely my point! Why the heck is it ok for a childminder to be paid a living wage to look after my children - but it's not okay for me to look after my own children unless DH suddenly miraculously gets a highly paid job?

And the reason it's not ok for benefit claimants to do the same work as criminals is...no reason at all, it's the way it is implemented that counts. Living on benefits (if you are not cheating) is hard at the best of times, and it would be a form of punishment unless they were given more than just 'What the Government says you need to survive' (which is how it is put on your claim letter).

Prisoners (actual inmates) are also dependent on the state for their livelihood.

But they sued when they were forced to do work they didn't want to do, they said it was against their human rights.

By that token, how is it okay to force people who are not criminals to do work?

Well, that is true expat, but er...they wouldn't be forced to work they could say no and not receive any cash. I do believe in working to earn benefits if you are capable and it makes sense where childcare is concerned (ie, you still see your kids enough to call them your own, and taxes are not paying someone else the same amount or more than they could be paying you to look after them), but only if it gives a fair standard of living.
By a 'fair standard of living', i imply what EVERY human should have a right to - a wage that covers their health bills, food, housing, fuel, clothing, water, pension, travel costs, etc. not to mention a few treats as you are working for it!

People on benefits won't be forced to community work in the way that criminals are they have the following choices.

a) Go without money.
b) Get an F*ing job like the rest of the UK.
c) Do the paid community work and I hope there would be some level of choice.

A criminal has the choice
a) Do the unpaid community work as set out by the judge
b) Go to jail

expatinscotland, if you want to go on about your rights, what about growing up and facing your responsiblites. Ie. Being a bit more independent and earning your living?

The welfare state was only ever meant to be a safety net for those who need short term help or the severely disabled.

Just an aside, but I really hate it when people describe MP's as 'scroungers' who are earning loads of money.

The MPs what-I-have-known work stupidly hard hours, pretty much 24/7 with no breaks at all. And ALL of them could earn FAR more if they were working in the private sector.

I think that MPs need reasonably high salaries to attract a high calibre candidate for the job.

The typical backbench MP earns less than a GP. Both jobs require bright and hard working people. Both jobs are extremely responsible. There are also years of slog in low paid positions for both jobs.

'expatinscotland, if you want to go on about your rights, what about growing up and facing your responsiblites. Ie. Being a bit more independent and earning your living?'

Well, gees, ReallyTired, seeing as that I've never lived off benefits, I'd say I'm pretty grown up and responsible.

Thanks for making such huge assumptions about me.

If you'd read my posts, I've stated on here many times, ad nauseum, that I am working poor.

I even went to work full-time when DD1 was 8 weeks old and I was being treated for severe PND, because DH lost his job and it was easier for me to get a job than he could, as he has some pretty significant learning disabilities.

But I don't see that as a stick to beat others with.

You really need to grow up, KM .

yes,i think some people would like to see the return of the workhouse.

it doesnt matter if a prisoner has to go without money as they will still get fed and have a roof over their heads.

yes,its so easy to just go out and get a job,thats why only lazy feckers claim benefits

It is soooo easy, like, just the other day DH was, like, saying how matalan in our town, for example, would actually take on staff, but for the fact that 95% of the staff are actually unemployed people on Work Placements.

I would be interested to know the actual figures are in most places of work for Paid Employees vs Work Placements. Because if they can find work for an unemployed person to do then WHY CAN THEY NOT HIRE SOMEONE?

I truly don't care if unemployed people work or not. It is not enough money to make a difference to the economy.

work if you can, if you want to, if you can't or won't be grateful you can be kept just above the breadline by the state.

I like to think the state would keep me alive if I was unable to work.

Some of them do make me laugh though. The husband of that Wife Swap girl who hadn't worked for years coz his Dad died and he was depressed. Everyones Dad dies for heavens skaes. I do feel sorry for the kids though with no decent role models to look up to.

I think for full-time parents its different, it just isn't practical to work, especially single mums and can be crazy to try to aswell.

Such a tough situation to be in, I think a generous benefits system is what keeps us civilised.

Im so tired of people saying that there are people who deserve to be on teh dole and that some cases are OK.

if you are claiming benefits that you are entitled to, you are not defrauing the system and are not claiming illegally then its none of your businesses what people spend their money on/how often they look for work/how many children they have.

has it occured to you that if a family has 5 children then the rent on their home will be considerable, their food and travel bills will be enormous. I doubt teh wages of someone returning to work after long term unemployment would be enough to pay for a large family so both parents would need to work which will then lead to childcare costs.
for some families the benefit trap really is just that. they simply don't have the skills required to get a job paying enough to support their families.

blame the system, blame those who abuse it. but do not judge those who are doing nothing but claiming what they are entitled to.

I worry that forcing people who are unwilling to work to work for a benefit payment that it will push them towards crime. A certain margin of people just don't want to conform and don't have any sense of personal worth or pride.

Mind you a life of crime can be hard work too, from what I see on the telly.

Initially I was going to post that this is outrageous - that if the work needs doing they should create jobs, and maybe ring fence them for people on benefits.

BUT, then I stopped to think about it. Let's face it, whilst on benefits these people would get JSA/IS, housing benefit, council tax benefit, free prescriptions, free dental care, free school meals, free training, etc. etc. etc. They'd be better off doing the job for benefits than doing it for wages!!

expat, re:

"the government works WITH business"

Of course they do. Government provides hospitable environment for businesses to flourish, BUT also has to set regulations/incentives/subsidies/taxes etc to prevent bad practice and abuse. Much of your complaints below should be directed at the government:

"They make people redundant in order to keep the price of their shares high"
"put the nations food producers out of business"
"don't pay a living wage"
"their businesses spoil the environment"

By the way, are you really sure that you want to live in a country where employees cannot be made redundant during economic downturns etc? It didn't work so well for east of the Iron Curtain.

expat, as for this:

"Prisoners (...) sued when they were forced to do work they didn't want to do, they said it was against their human rights. By that token, how is it okay to force people who are not criminals to do work?"

When state incarcerates someone, it is responsible for that person, including providing all that is necessary to keep him alive and in reasonably good health. Making them work for that keep is against these principles, which I believe is why they sued successfully.

Those of us living outside prisons, however, are responsible for ourselves. We have to work. Social security is there as a safety net and it is normal to expect that we get back on our feet at some point and start to work, and stop relying on state support. It is unreasonable to expect the state to provide eternally.

I am really saddened by this debate and the fact that the (so-called) Labour government is bringing the US style welfare to work policy over here.

First I think that some proportion of our society will always be less able to work for a living. Having been set up for failure by a crappy upbringing, low expectations, abuse, phobias, depression, social deprivation etc. etc. etc. Not always in a visible to their neighbours way, some people are lazy buggers (I am lazy I managed to avoid paid employment till I was 22 - then I got a very hard shop job working upwards of 50 hours a week - a big shock for a Humanities graduate with no experience).

Those who are 'working the system' will find a way to work the the new system to their advantage as that is their 'job'.

Those who are vulnerable and scared of being put into work situations they cannot handle will be left much worse off.

Some individuals may well benefit from being given work to do but it will benefit the employers more who will be paid to take on staff - therefore jobs will not be created.

There is too much 'I am working so they [feckless families on benefits]should be working' attitude being displayed - I feel guilty for not working despite not currently needing too thanks to tax payers (DH is a civil servant).

If we want a healthy working society then forced employment is not in my opinion the answer - it is a way for the Govt to appear 'tough' on unemployment and PR is not a good justification for any policy.

"has it occured to you that if a family has 5 children then the rent on their home will be considerable, their food and travel bills will be enormous. I doubt teh wages of someone returning to work after long term unemployment would be enough to pay for a large family so both parents would need to work which will then lead to childcare costs."

I'm sorry but if you cannot afford to bring up a large family, there is no excuse today to have one! I have one child. I would love another one, but cannot afford to. So I don't have one - end of. Why should everyone else have to subsidise this? I'm sure there are cases where where people with already large families have fallen on hard times but I'm betting they're in the minority.

I just can't believe that someone wrote it was unreasonable for a full time parent to have to work. Well - aren't we all full time parents? I know I am, but I had to miss some of their childhood whilst I earned money to keep them in food and clothes. I had to pay childminders to look after them - it is what people do.

Madame Bovary - I agree with what you say!!