Why is it that children of immigrants on the right propose the harshest immigration policies?

[MyCyanBear]

Was reading up on Reform's immigration plans and the actual wording surprised me. It's not just tougher rules for new arrivals: indefinite leave to remain "will be abolished. No new awards granted and existing ones rescinded." So people who already have settled status would lose it and reapply every five years against salary thresholds they haven't published.

What struck me is that their home affairs spokesman, Zia Yusuf, is the son of an NHS paediatrician and a nurse who came from Sri Lanka in the 80s. Run his own family through the policy and there's no published answer to whether they'd have qualified at each renewal. NHS wages being what they are.

Longer piece with the sources here if anyone wants the detail: trendingsheet.com/article/would-reform-immigration-rules-let-zia-yusuf-parents-stay

Yes, classic pulling up of the ladder behind them.

I think you think people think about caste a lot more than they do.

No it's because they and the their families have to put up with the racism every time there is another Islamist attack so they want to stop them happening..

My parents were explicitly anti racist, they also abhorred the caste system, we got chats on it. Still believed in a sensible immigration system which accounted for the ability to absorb numbers without damaging existing public services. I’m pro migration myself, I believe in high quality migration, which will lead to a long term positive impact on society and our economy. I don’t think you should just take anyone, I think numbers should reflect the need of the country and the ability to absorb those numbers with minimal disruption. Theres a lot of research on demographic change and what promotes peaceful co-existence. A big part of that is slower and smaller numbers. Migration is a fact of life, it it can be a massive plus to a country, it can also be extremely damaging if done incorrectly.

they have assimilated so far into white right wing culture they have forgotton who they are. my partner is jamacian and he has a name for people like that.

The whole applying to their families doesn't work when there have been hundreds of changes to immigration law over the last couple of decades, which means it's very likely they wouldn't have been able to migrate under our current laws anyways, nevermind the mess Reform says they want. That ladder was pulled up, tossed away, and been replaced ages ago.

I mean, the legal way I immigrated was no longer legal within about 4 years after I did so. Literally every step from the way I arrived to all the visas, to when I did the testing (I had indefinite leave to remain before testing came in), it's all been changed over the years.

People on indefinite leave to remain/settled status have been fucked over and had to jump through hoops to regain rights already tested, background checked, and paid for before. Some of the people named were involved in previous ones like the biometric residency permit and the more recent digital version. This constant changing and having to prove yourself again and again has happened to a lot of us. Every new application or requirement to fulfil is a whole new set of fees, documents for the private partners to process....

I'd more question why many of the wealthy - whoever their parents are - like this rhetoric even though they get the most benefit from all this. We can make all the claims about them individuals, but when most of them have been involved in the hundreds of changes, most of which were claimed at the time to be about reducing, they brought in private companies into the immigration process, we should ask why they benefit from this rhetoric and their previous action. We have so many gangs bringing in people illegally who get caught, deported, and bringing them back to 'pay off debts' that our government is doing far too little about.

I wouldn't be focused on their words, I wouldn't be focusing on who their parents are or the colour of their skin, focus on the impact of what they've done already and follow on who is profiting for our immigration system being an ever changing, ever growing mess. And yes, migrants and our children are quite capable of having harsh opinions on that even if we couldn't meet the current or any dreamed up requirements.

This.

It is almost like they are desperate to show they are not ''one of them''.

The irony is that is no matter how right wing they sound and how much hate they spew towards immigrants, for the average Reform voter they still will always just be another brown or black face who they will never accept as being English/British.

Pandering to and trying to outdo the racists and xenophobic is a losing game.

No, it isn't. I was right the first time.
It is totally about me, myself, and I.
Racist to other immigrants and see themselves as 'integrated ' hiding behind their racist abhorrent views.

This!

There is some psychology behind it. Pulling the ladder up behind them, as a concept, is not just about preventing others from gaining similar advantages. It is also signally that you are assimilated and therefore ‘safe’ from being cast out as an ‘other’. But it’s a fragile and precarious position.

And the Western Left is not desperately trying to prove to the rest of the world they aren’t (supposedly) racist like other white ppl?

Don’t they think other cultures are better than the one they are born into and try to adopt their views and values?

The « not one of them » goes both ways …

It’s almost like immigrants aren’t all left wing guardian readers and might, just might come from cultures where views are considerably further to the right?

And if this country is struggling to cope, I’d hazard a guess it’s more due to the poor productivity and insane benefits bill that is mostly attributable to the natives (for want of a better word).

Because the politicians in question are being hypocritical and shortsighted.

This. This. This.

Immigrants who’ve worked hard, paid the fees and done things properly have every right to resent those who have not.

Especially relevant if they happen to be the same race or ethnic background and therefore receive abuse from those who tar all migrants with the same brush.

It might be hard for you to grasp but many people are decent individuals who don't want anything to do with racism and xenophobia.

Nothing to do with left versus right or thinking that 'other cultures are better''.

It is just common decency.

I had a very racist friend. Both of her parents were born and brought up abroad and arrived in the UK as young adults. Her favourite moan was “England is no longer England”. She wanted to go back to some kind of 1950s fantasy version of the world that only contained cute thatched cottages, manicured lawns and little tea shops. If anything went wrong, immigrants got the blame. Presumably that did not include her own family.

So assume that you and your kids have been subject to racist abuse after an islamist attack and you are fine with that? You like being racially abused and don't want to do anything to stop it???

Coming from such a background it’s not fully justified but a lot of it is due to the fact that immigrants today are often not as willing to integrate and contribute to society in the way they used to.

Many immigrants, for example the Indian immigrants kicked out of Uganda, were very pro British often had inherited cultural capital and were willing to work hard and build a life for themselves and importantly integrate into British culture.

Many immigrants today come from troubled backgrounds and cultures, are not willing to integrate into British society (rather they want to turn Britain into their home countries) and are more likely to turn to the benefits system.

If we want to stop the negative attitudes towards immigration we need to design policies that encourage the ‘good’ type of immigrants to come and discourage those who don’t want to make a positive contribution to British society. And unfortunately, we do need that contribution to be financial and therefore perhaps it is right to not allow low earning migrants to stay post their working contracts in the UK.

We need immigration, it is good for society and our economy. But only if the people coming want to integrate into British society, embrace British values and contribute economically

You’re not addressing my comparison and prefer a personal attack … would the truth hurt?

I think I grasp very well that you had never realised your own hypocrisy of YOUR race-based double standards, which is quite the paradox for a progressive,

@micantspelljack the other poster who agreed with you implied a racial slur (hiding behind her Jamaican partner though, brave but careful not to take responsibility for her own words and blame a black man if it goes wrong)

It’s quite racist and despicable.

Pulling The ladder up behind them

I hear what you are saying. I am an immigrant myself . However this policy will not affect me directly for several reasons. Hopefully. However i never understand immigrants who want to pull the ladder behind them. Its almost as if they think they are better than others because they are second generation or because they have citizenship.

What they dont realise is that any racist/ xenophobic policies may tomorrow be turned against them as well. It just sets the scene. This has happened time and again in history. This is the reason why i despise the likes of Suella and Kemi Badenoch. Yes as an immigrant i really do understand why people have a problem with uncontrolled imigration i really do. I have been here for a few decades and i have seen firsthand issues raised and sometimes as immigrants we dont do ourselves any favours. However, i dont understand how other immigrants first generation or not would want policies that are so draconian they boarder on inhumane. Just because it wont affect them. They think they are special because they have made a few bob or two.

Now am not saying any opposition against immigration is racist etc. It clearly is not and there are some real concerns which i agree with some of them. But its hard to argue that some of them are indeed suspect.

What they dont realise is that they then get used by the racist/ xenophobic elements as a justification as they can say this policy is not racist as they have a powerful immigrant or person who is an ethnic minority endorsing them. Find it sad really.

But are you and your kids racially abused every time there is an Islamist attack? And if so, are you happy about it?

Can’t speak for all immigrants, but I won’t take citizenship of my adopted country because I believe unless I’m prepared to fight and die for the nation I’m ineligible. Probably due to growing up in a military family.

After 30+ here, just as Covid hit I stopped saying “you” and it turned into “us”. I would fight & die for Italy. Probably die quickly given my age and general lack of fitness. But if Britain & Italy went to war against each other I can’t lie and say I wouldn’t have divided loyalties. Unless it was very clear cut that Britian had lost the plot and was deffo “The Baddie” it might be a good idea to put me in temp custody during the war cos I can’t guarantee I wouldn’t “collude with the enemy”.

My 50/50 son is in a different position. He’s bilingual & bicultural, but Italian runs through him like a stick of rock. He’s been exposed to my attitudes as an immigrant, and a whole range of different attitudes via his friends’ parents. I think he struggles a bit in the face of those who see gaining citizenship here as taking an advantage that’s on the table, without the soul searching and high value placed on true allegiance. Absolutely no doubt his perspective has been coloured by my own and how my childhood shaped my view.

So I expect that there won’t be one clear path to people taking a stance that some find surprising. It will depend to some extent on the values the previous generation exposed their kids to, and how those values meld or clash with others with a similar immigration background,

It’s superiority - told they are better than other immigrants… if you look at the policies of the BJP Party in India… as with any nation people think their faith, class/caste, colour, culture.. whatever it might be is different.

Back in the day, even as late as the 80s, Britain was still largely a beacon of democracy, fairness and rule of law which immigrants knew they would have a right to, irrespective of their race, colour or creed.

Unfortunately the do-gooding liberal left and corrupt career politicians have dismantled this and now Britain is a lawless, bankrupt joke.

To add to the many economic and global problems, we have thousands of young (largely Muslim) males rocking up by small boat daily wanting housing and healthcare. No one seems to be doing anything to stop it. Ideas of integration and multiculturalism are no longer fashionable. The landscape and culture of many towns and cities has become unrecognisable. I suspect, like many people, settled immigrants can see with their own eyes how unsustainable and unfair it all is.

It’s only the prosperous middle classes that can afford the lifestyle that renders them immune from some of the worst of it, and still calling people bigots and racists for opposing policies of mass immigration and yearning for change.