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do you think fathers for justice help their cause?

74 replies

2shoes · 08/06/2008 22:13

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7442435.here

OP posts:
Salamander · 09/06/2008 18:35

Actually isn't it kind of interesting that the persona that the F4J man goes for is a superhero - the ultimate male archetype - about as far from the feminine as you can get.

JulesJules · 09/06/2008 18:43

No, they are utter wankers. Harriet Harman said on the radio that she would have been perfectly prepared to meet them for a discussion, but they hadn't even asked. Even if this wasn't true, she and her children should not have had their house invaded.

jellybeans · 09/06/2008 18:58

I have always felt uncomfortable about them (f4j) as they just seem abit too militant and anti-women. They seem bitter and many have sordid pasts. I think some of them may be trying to get back at the ex rather than be really thinking about their kids (which some were not in the marriag anyhow (putting kids first) if there was violence or affairs etc). It would be better to concentrate on access for both parents from a childs point of view rather than FATHERS rights.

LittleBella · 09/06/2008 19:00

Tazmosis, it is a matter of record that the ringleaders of F4J are convicted violent abusers. That's not contested, they just don't think it's terribly important as violence is their normal way of getting their own way.

I wouldn't let my kids near any of them and I don't blame their exes for not letting them near their kids either.

And you notice how they don't campaign to force men to see their children regularly, or to pay maintenance, or to be jailed for violence against women and children?

Pah. Bunch of wankers. Glad they don't know who I am, because doubtless they'd come and punch me for saying that.

tazmosis · 09/06/2008 19:04

Hi Littlebella - when I google fathers 4 justice I can't find anything that confirms that the members have been convicted of violence or abuse - the only negative I found was the Trevor Mcdonald programme but it also said that the programme makers gave no right to reply so the content was considered a bit questionable.

Not disbelieving you, but I'd be interested to know more - how do you know about that, where has it been reported?

jellybeans · 09/06/2008 19:13

I read that some from f4j do not think a history of violence should stop access. To me that is abit shocking. What should come first fathers or kids rights?

InLoveWithSweeneyTodd · 09/06/2008 20:00

No. I don't like them at all.

Janos · 09/06/2008 20:31

No, I don't think they do.

It would be nice if they did want equality, but they don't. What they really want is for men to be back in charge of the family, like in the 'good old days'.

Women - know your limits!

Janos · 09/06/2008 20:48

"I also know how many angry vengeful women there are out there, who - whilst holding themselves up as shining examples of dedicated motherhood - happily use the kids appalling to hit back at a man who has left the relationship."

Heartrending stuff there tazmosis.

Although, if we're talking anecdotal evidence, perhaps you'd care to take a quick look around MN for starters. For every single 'angry vengeful woman' who 'happily use the kids' you'll find five times as many men who abandon/abuse their partners and children.

LittleBella · 09/06/2008 20:58

I can't be arsed to google, but Matt O'Connor, the founder of f4j, had an injunction against him because he beat up his wife. Eddie Gorecki, a lynchpin of the organisation, was a thug with convictions as long as your arm. I don't have access to teh court records, but they are a matter of public record. A large number of their members were constantly being exposed as perpetrators of domestic violence. This is not news, this is well known by anyone who has been following their shenanigans.

It's noteworthy that they have never pronounced on how damaging domestic violence is to childrne. Which given that in the tiny number of cases a court denies contact to children, DV is the reason, and their reason for existence is to complain about courts not giving contact, is somewhat telling, imo.

Janos · 09/06/2008 21:06

Some interesting reading here:

Interview with Matt O'Connor

constancereader · 09/06/2008 21:16

Both those concepts are heartrending Janos. One being true does not preclude the other also being true. I agree that there are more arsehole men out there not caring about their families than there are vindictive women, but how is that relevant to a man who is denied access to his children although he has done nothing wrong? Both of those situations exist, they are two seperate issues.

That said, I don't believe F4J is a useful or helpful organisation in highlighting what is imo a valid cause.

constancereader · 09/06/2008 21:17

or even separate

Sidge · 09/06/2008 21:24

A few of them may have noble reasons for their actions but I think the majority are completely barking and I imagine their initial reason for joining F4J has dissolved in the excitement of dressing up like a superhero and being on the TV.

Climbing on the roof of someone's private residence is bang out of order - their bullying tactics really don't win them much support, not in my circle of friends and colleagues.

Do you remember when one chap climbed on the roof of Buckingham Palace? I couldn't believe he didn't get himself shot, bearing in mind the security situations.

If they put half as much effort into repairing their relationships with their children and ex-wives as they put into their idiotic 'pranks' they might get some respect.

Janos · 09/06/2008 21:28

Yes, that's true constancereader. It is terrible that a loving dad could be denied access to his children.

My issue however is more with the type of misogynistic language used, which fuels the myth about nasty spiteful women denying access that F4J feed off.

IME there are many, many more women trying to facilitate access and be reasonable (often under severe provocation)than 'angry vengeful women'set on punishing men. I would be very surprised if stats don't bear this out.

LittleBella · 09/06/2008 21:28

LOL at Deborah Ross trying to smile uncuntily.

WideWebWitch · 09/06/2008 21:33

they are wankers
that's my intelligent contribution

eenybeeny · 09/06/2008 22:20

WWW you remind me of my DH that is exactly how he says things!

tazmosis · 09/06/2008 23:15

Janos - do you believe all women are good and all men are bad? Why is it misogynistic language - if I say x women is horrid, is that misogynistic?

And yes, I think that for Dads who are unjustly prevented from seeing their children it is heartrending - don't you?

As far as looking around mumsnet - yes there are women who have had a really rough ride, but there are also openly spiteful and vengeful women- the existence of one does't remove the other. But why is what you see posted on MN fact, but my experience anecdotal?

And finally why so rude?

Janos · 10/06/2008 18:38

Hello tazmosis, I just re-read my post and it does come across as very rude and aggressive. I apologise for that, not like me at all.

My point about anecdotal evidence was badly made too, not saying 'your' evidence/experience is less valid then experiences on MNet.

It also gives the impression that I don't care about Dads who can't see their children, that's not true. I actually agree with you, if a loving Dad can't see his children that is a heart-rending situation.

My real issue is with F4J, I really can't bear them, for reasons which I will explain.

Firstly, I'm convinced they are motivated not by desire for equality and concern about children but by a desire to be inc charge and cause trouble for their exes. So they are not so concerned about their children and more about themselves.

Secondly, several of their members had convictions against them for domestic violence/other offences - Matt O'Connor admits this in the interview I linked to above.

Thirdly, there is unpleasant whiff of misogyny about the whole organisation. You'd think they would want to work with women, not against them. I've had a few run ins with F4J members online and they were nice people. I remember one in particular crowing over Sally Phillips death and saying she was an alcoholic who was unfit to have children.

Fourthly, I think (my opinion) that they are seeking to perpetuate a myth that there is a widespread problem of good, decent men being denied access to their children by spiteful nasty women. I don't deny that these situations occur, but I'm certain that there are many more cases where women trying to facilitate access and be reasonable (often under severe provocation. I would be very surprised if stats don't bear this out.

Anyway I've waffled on a bit. I hope that goes some way to explaining my position and shows that I'm not a complete cow!

Sorry once again.

Janos · 10/06/2008 18:40

Obviously I meant to say they were NOT nice people.

Terrible typos - really should preview.Oops!

Salamander · 10/06/2008 19:37

Can the court rest on the judgement that they are indeed wankers, women-haters and bad fathers...?

I think so

night night

tazmosis · 10/06/2008 20:03

Hi Janos - apology accepted and thanks. I think I've learned alot about F4J and probably lean more towards your view than I did!

Janos · 10/06/2008 20:23

Thank you for being so gracious tazmosis

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