92 year old tasered, hit and pepper sprayed

[whompingwillo]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp8dv60dygro.amp

Because of a piece of cutlery? The mind boggles and it made me feel really sad. People in care homes become confused all the time due to multiple reasons. Seems highly unlikely anyone was in danger enough to warrant this force. He subsequently died 3 weeks later

I struggle to think why they have called the police tbh. I’ve worked in a care home and in some similar circumstances the area was cleared. bit of patience then distraction, unless someone was in danger it seems really unnecessary.

This is why I think we arent getting the whole picture.

The incident passed the threshold for two police officers to be charged and prosecuted by the CPS.

This is an account of a recent part of the trial from the BBC.

The police officers will be able to give evidence should they choose to with their justifications.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp8dv60dygro.amp

I was shocked this has taken so long. Incident happened June 2022.

Victim taken to the hospital where three weeks later he died of COVID!!!

So were these officers on duty for another three years, or what?

Which part of the body cam footage showed the two officers on any staff or resident in danger of being assaulted?

83 seconds is not a lot of time to try verbal methods to defuse the situation.

Both the pepper spray and taser are regulated under the same legislation as guns. Ordinary people cant get permission to carry either as they are designed to be used against humans.

He may have had a massive history of violent outbursts or this could have been the only event. Neither history would matter because the event had to be judged on the evidence presented at the trial.

I worked in social care and mental health for years and I’ve seen lots of police officers acting with skill and compassion, as well as the odd idiot who should not be in uniform. These ones fall into the latter category obviously.

I’m a police officer and that disgusts me. They should be sacked and convicted. And I truly hope they are.
I know that clips of footage often doesn’t provide true context but he clearly posed a very very low risk. They could’ve just grabbed the knife from him without too much of an issue.
Horrendous. The reason why people hate us so much. Understandably.

I think cases are taking a long time there’s still stuff from covid times hanging around. They can whizz through when they want to but a lot of stuff is sitting on a shelf. I know someone who was a witness to something four years ago , investigated at the time, cps has said it’ll be going to court in summer.

Is there some reason the care home staff couldn’t have just stood back and waited for him to fall asleep? Even if it took a few hours, he couldn’t have harmed anyone if they simply moved away from him.

Ours here are too short staffed to spend time like this.

This is my experience and understanding too

Yes he could of taken his eye outwith the knife
just because it a butter type of knife he could still injure himself

Oh fgs

So better a definite injury than a potential one?

Communal or not, at the point the police were there he wasn't in a position to hurt anyone else.

Not really comparable. This wasn't a man shouting, screaming and kicking, he was sitting silently in a chair. Most importantly, he only had one leg, which severely limits anyone's ability to be violent to others.

I bet it caused much more of a staffing problem with all witnesses having to go to the police station to give statements and subsequently having to give evidence in court. To say nothing of having to prepare thorough internal reports, explain themselves to relatives, and deal with any subsequent CQC investigation.

If he made a move towards injuring himself, they could have got the knife off him very easily at that point, if not before.

These 2 so called police officers are a pair of aggressive thugs. Their behaviour was despicable and inexcusable. I hope their careers are over.

I have decades of care home nursing experience and I can’t think of one situation in all that time that made me think to send for police back up. I suspect if the care home staff didn’t have the know how to deal with this poor old man then they are in the wrong job. His poor family must be heartbroken to see the aggressive treatment dished out to this poor confused and frightened man. The clip made me feel physically sick.

I can't believe what I have just watched. That poor man and his family. Shocking behaviour by all who are meant to help keep him safe.

I see that one of the officers says he didn't notice that Mr Burgess was disabled. Not only is this quite alarming in relation to his powers of observation, surely police officers are trained to ensure that, before going into what they believe to be a potentially dangerous situation, they ensure they have all the relevant facts?

He also claims he gave ample opportunities to put the knife down. I just can't see that going for the pepper spray, baton and taser within 80 seconds of meeting a man in a wheelchair waving a butter knife around constitutes giving ample opportunities.

I imagine he was quiet because nobody was approaching him.
My old lady sat peacefully until she was asked to get into the ambulance.
When the paramedics tried to help her, she went off her nut and assaulted them. She assaulted the police, too. And me.

Believe me, we had been trying (for six hours) to get her into the ambulance quietly. It was quite impossible.

So I think that this old man refused to give up the knife, and had been refusing to do so for hours, and was threatening people with it. I can't imagine the staff would have called the police unless there was no alternative.

nonsense. there is no excuse for this.

Bloody hell. In 30 years of nursing I've never allowed a patient to be treated like this and Ive looked after prisoners, sectioned paranoid schizophrenics, alcoholics and drug addicts. The police should be charged with GBH.

I'm normally pro police but that is just awful. There was absolutely no need for that level of force.

He could have hurt himself or someone else with the knife, yes it was a butter knife but pushed into an eye, or the mouth could have caused an injury beyond minor, and care workers aren't allowed to just grab him and wrestle it off him as is being suggested, it's assault.

He couldn't be left alone with it as a) he could have injured himself and b) in a place that specialises in dementia care, residents wander, it's quite often part of the condition and to prevent that can cause distress in itself, so another resident could have wandered into his room and been injured. Leaving him with it alone is failing in the duty of care.

And sometimes it's just not possible to talk someone down, especially an elderly person with a UTI, because they are not seeing the situation rationally and are unlikely to respond to rational ideas and conversation.

So yes, I do think the police needed to be called because the care workers don't have the training or permission to just wrestle the knife away from him. What followed was massively heavy handed and uncalled for. The police could have physically restrained him as much as needed to remove the knife and no more. It may have left bruises and probably would have hurt, and they'd have had to explain their actions, but charging in with a pepper spray and a taser? Massive over reaction.

I've called the police in similar situations and I have to say they've been great, they've listened to us, and I've even 'pretended' to be arrested before so that the person trusts the police officer enough to give up their weapon (and it's been forks, part of a broken cup and a drawer front!) they've walked in and from the off 'played in' to the reality of the person, made them feel they're on their side and gained trust and they're there to right the 'wrong' that's been done to the person posing the threat.

As I said I'm normally pro police but these two got it very wrong, had I been a member of staff there I wouldn't have stood by and said nothing, I'd have been trying to reason with them and explain to them and would have been appalled to witness that.

I've had to advocate for dementia patients in hospitals (to medical staff!!) who got heavy handed and entered into a battle of wills with someone who is ill or injured, needs treatment, but is also not seeing the situation rationally. Shouting instructions at someone in that state is going to get you nowhere. Trying to reason with them gets you nowhere, you need to play into their reality and gain their trust in that moment.

I'm absolutely disgusted by that video and I hope they're prosecuted.