India knight on smoking in times

[FluffyMummy123]

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Now there's an idea. If we start a religion that requires smoking we'll have a huge congregation. Anyone fancy being archbishop of the church of nicotine?
We can have an altar with an ashtray on it

More anecdotal but a friend who runs a pub claims that the old man style pubs have suffered but the ones that serve food have greatly benefited from the ban.

I don't patronise smokers - their health, their life. But I really hated it when my evenings out, or my lovely meal out was ruined by smokers at the next table having a fag between every course. I think that is why most people get wound up about it - if you choose to drink too much or take up high risk sports you only risk your own life. When you risk other peoples' lives it is more of an issue!

I agree Upwind, I am quite happy for people to have the freedom to smoke-if they want an early death that is up to them-they are adults, it is legal and they can make their own decisions. However I don't see why they should inflict it on other people. I have had evenings ruined because of other people's smoke. It doesn't go with food and it is revolting to be smoking at a table between courses! The worst thing is having to wash everything as soon as I get home.Smokers seem oblivious to the fact that they, and their houses, stink of cigarettes.
I agree totally that if people drink or partake in high risk sports that is a personal decision and they are not forcing the rest of us into it, unlike smokers who seem to think that passive smoking is acceptable.

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For or against?

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yes. These are those who say that any perfume is as bad as the smell of smoking which makes me

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and fwiw I don't believe for one minute that Katiescarlet 'wouldn't care' if she got cancer. I'd bet next months salary that she loves her kids to distraction and would be horrified at the thought of leaving them earlier than she needs to.

And I felt I had the right to debate the point with her.

All of the smokers that I meet at the oncology clinic regret it. Even those who are so addicted they try to smoke through their tracheostomy tubes.

It is a vile, veil , veil addiction.

But saying you wouldn't care f you got cancer is either ignorance of what having cancer actually means to you and your family or it is whistling in the dark

that would be three viles not one and two veils!

& I don't believe I have ever been in a pub where the bar staff smoked in the pub. Before the smoking ban kitchen and bar staff were still expected to go out the back.

Yes, the ban would be justified purely on olfactory grounds. IIRC in other places where the ban was introduced it took a while for cleaning to be improved to get rid of the pub stench and nightclubs actually had to upgrade their ventilation systems.

I can understand teenagers starting if they think that it makes them look adult. I can't understand adults, especially those who are parents, carrying on when the health risks are well known and it is proved to be a killer.

Upwind: "if you choose to drink too much ... you only risk your own life. When you risk other peoples' lives it is more of an issue!"

Fron the Alcoholics Anonymous site: "Every week eleven people are killed by drunk drivers. Between 1996 and 1999, the number of deaths caused by drunk drivers fell dramatically from 580 a year to 460, but provisional figures for 2005 show that they have risen sharply to 560 deaths."

I think you'll find that the number of deaths from alcohol-fuelled violence is also not inconsiderable. Passive drinking, anyone? Certainly two wrongs don't make a right but 'alcohol harms noone but the drinker' was a very illfounded claim indeed.

Someone previously asked for an actual quote for proof that pub profits are falling in the wake of the smoking ban, as if they doubt it. Google it and you'll find thousands.

"Paul Waterson, chief executive of the Scottish Licensed Trade Association, said: "Our own results show turnover figures among our membership are down by 11 per cent. Our figures and yesterday's results confirm that the smoking ban is badly hurting our business, no matter what the politicians say."

Merryforge, I don't doubt your stats but among my friends and family there are several who drink more than is good for them - but none who drink drive, or are violent when drunk. The same people smoke and their smoking does directly affect me. It stinks and also puts my health at risk.

and what makes you think the smoking ban was solely responsible for a downturn in the pub numbers?

From what I remember, that did not happen elsewhere, e.g. Ireland. So could it have something to do with supermarkets' cheap offers on alcohol? An economic downturn?

Upwind, perhaps you'd care to write to the chief executive of the Scottish Licensed Trade Association and explain how pub profit margins really work!

You also say that "where the ban was introduced it took a while for cleaning to be improved to get rid of the pub stench and nightclubs actually had to upgrade their ventilation systems"

Surely cleaning didn't need to be improved? it would need less cleaning with only 'nice' people in pubs. And 'installing new ventilation systems' after the ban makes no sense unless they were trying to clear the air of bullshit.

As for the bar staff they used to be able to smoke whenever they got a minute to do so. Now they really need to be all non smokers since they would otherwise smell of it and you'd know the moment you entered the car park that a smoker was around.

I think that the downturn in the economy and cheap supermarket drink has much more to do with it, it is very convenient for smokers to put it down to themselves.
Drunken drivers undoubtly kill people, but they do that whether they drink in public or private. No one is asking smokers to stop, merely to do it in private and not to pollute the atmosphere for those of us who don't wish to passsive smoke or smell like an ashtray.

AbbeyA, I don't know if the chief executive of the Scottish Licensed Trade Association IS a smoker.

Also

Grey - maybe it depends on the pubs, in the ones I frequent and the ones I worked in smoking while serving customers would never have been tolerated. I developed a real addiction while working in pubs because having a ciggarette was the only acceptable excuse to sit and relax out the back for five minutes.

When the smoking ban was implemented the smell of stale spilled beer from carpets and general mustiness became apparant in pubs. In nightclubs it was really disgusting - a heady mix of body odour, vomit and spilled drinks - hence anecdotes of certain clubs upgrading ventilation systems and taking a more serious approach to carpet cleaning.

Merryforge - the day I take what Paul Waterson of the SLTA says about the impact of the law on will be the day...

This piece in the International Journal of Epidemiology shows why relying on anecdotal evidence is no measure of ehat is really happening. The Vintners' Federation in Ireland made claims of that were not borne out in an objective review of the actual data.

But never mind, Greyriverside - if you'renot going to win on the science, just move onto the economics, eh? Shame the facts aren't on your side there, either.

I don't think that it right to expect people to give up altogether, I am very much for freedom of choice, but I don't think that they have the right to inflict it on everyone else. I have a right to go out for a meal and not have people lighting up between courses.

Firepile, Science? next time you walk down the street wear a mask to stop the bad smoking germs from leaping across from smokers clothes. Have you listened to what most people call scientific thought on this?
There are facts and I've never denied the true dangers, but something ought to be done about the urban myths and superstitions springing up around it.

Upwind. I see what you mean now. So you're one of those who say that pubs smell really bad now the smoking isn't obscuring the other smells. Someone said that further up, but I somehow expected you to be arguing the other side. I don't really have an opinion on that one, but will accept that it's quite possible.

Greyriverside. But you have denied the true dangers.

You said that the link between secondhand smoke and cancer wasn't proven. I posted extensive links to show it was.

Who is talking about "bad smoking germs"? Apart from you. You just sound completely ridiculous. There is evidence that chemicals in secondhand smoke leach into clothing, soft furnishings etc and the are released over time. But I don't think anyone is suggesting masks to deal with this.

Oh come on! I smoked 20 a day for 15 years and even i can see that it's ludicrous for anyone on this thread to suggest anything other than that smoking is disgusting, anti-social and dangerous (potentially lethal, actually) to others. Smokers are in such ridiculous denial. And I should know.

I expect that it has all been said now, but my two pence worth is this:

I am an ex smoker, but also have Asthma made worse by smoking , anyway, after I gave up I really started to notice when I was out in pubs etc, that the smoke made my Asthma worse. I never made a big deal out of it, as I felt as an ex smoker I didn't want to get all holier than thou, but it did put me off going.
I think it is wonderful to go out now, I know that my voice wont get hoarse, I wont get wheezy and almost best of all I wont come back stinking of smoke.

When I look at smokers huddled outside in their smoking corners, I feel no urge to join them in camaraderie, instead feel totally smug as they shiver