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Nuclear war

79 replies

warworries · 13/09/2024 19:15

It’s a frightening thought given the talks that are happening with Biden and Starmer. Can anyone talk me down?

OP posts:
cariadlet · 13/09/2024 22:09

I was a teenager in the 80s. Nuclear War seemed a genuine threat because of the Cold War.

At school, we learned about the Cuban missile crisis and our history teacher talked about what it was like to have lived through it. Nuclear War was probably even more of a possibility then.

I really can't see it happening now.

SaulHudsonDavidJones · 13/09/2024 22:16

SerenityNowInsanityLater · 13/09/2024 21:54

You know what OP, listen to some good military and political analysts who know the history (and all the historical and current beefs) intimately. They’ve played a part in it so they have solid insight and they’re not at all scary to listen to. Those guys are the cool heads.

You’ll actually feel better listening to them. They know the lay of the land and it’s so interesting listening to the strategies (and lack of!) that our leaders utilise and count on working in their favour. It really is one big willy waltz, to add to the willy waving sentiment upthread.

If you want any recommendations, I’ll PM you.

Ooh could you message me too please? I'm really interested in hearing the opinions of people like this.

TeaGinandFags · 13/09/2024 22:25

Drink tea.

Drink gin if that doesn't work.

If no better smoke a packet because you don't think you'll last long enough to get cancer.

Putin's playing chess. Starmer's waving his willy around and Sleepy Joe doesn't know what day it is.

It'll be fine.

Newbutoldfather · 13/09/2024 22:27

No one wants nuclear war and, to some extent, it is sabre rattling.

But, we would be crazy to make facile arguments like they haven’t been used yet. So what? It is a one shot deal, and the downside is the end of humanity as we know it.

I don’t know why Brits have to be the number one hawk in the Ukraine war. We are neither the closest nor the richest.

We need to tread very carefully and I hope we are acting on good information and not just assuming it is all a bluff.

My bet is humanity is destroyed by nuclear war long before climate change.

FixTheBone · 13/09/2024 22:28

Wont be a nuclear war anytime soon...

Wouldnt put it past putin to use a tactical nuclear strike against ukrainians in russian territory... I don't think nato or the usa could justify a nuclear retaliation and it would definitely add some credibility to his threats....

Gettingbysomehow · 13/09/2024 22:29

They all know that an all out nuclear war means everybody dies so it's highly unlikely.

maybeiknew · 13/09/2024 22:38

Gettingbysomehow · 13/09/2024 22:29

They all know that an all out nuclear war means everybody dies so it's highly unlikely.

I always wonder about their bunkers though - would they feel they could survive and therefore the threat of everyone dying isnt a worry as they’ll take their chosen few and carry on ?

Rummly · 13/09/2024 22:47

maybeiknew · 13/09/2024 22:38

I always wonder about their bunkers though - would they feel they could survive and therefore the threat of everyone dying isnt a worry as they’ll take their chosen few and carry on ?

Maybe. But what power-crazed leader would want to rule over a few thousand emaciated, boil-ridden casualties in a smoking wreck of a world?

MouseofCommons · 13/09/2024 22:53

Putin wouldn't want to give up his private jets, yachts and restaurants. I doubt he'll be triggering anything.

lolly07766 · 14/09/2024 00:06

SerenityNowInsanityLater · 13/09/2024 21:54

You know what OP, listen to some good military and political analysts who know the history (and all the historical and current beefs) intimately. They’ve played a part in it so they have solid insight and they’re not at all scary to listen to. Those guys are the cool heads.

You’ll actually feel better listening to them. They know the lay of the land and it’s so interesting listening to the strategies (and lack of!) that our leaders utilise and count on working in their favour. It really is one big willy waltz, to add to the willy waving sentiment upthread.

If you want any recommendations, I’ll PM you.

I'd like some recommendations please, I find it really interesting!

WinterMorn · 14/09/2024 00:52

maybeiknew · 13/09/2024 22:38

I always wonder about their bunkers though - would they feel they could survive and therefore the threat of everyone dying isnt a worry as they’ll take their chosen few and carry on ?

Realistically though, is a life consigned to a bunker a life worth living? It’s existing and nothing else.

SweetSakura · 14/09/2024 00:55

Putin's losing his grip domestically so needs some good sabre rattling headlines.

It's big scale willy waving and we don't have anyone stupid in charge in the UK /US any more at least.

Wars these days will (and already are) be fought by cyber as much as physical attacks anyway

HauntedBungalow · 14/09/2024 01:01

But, we would be crazy to make facile arguments like they haven’t been used yet. So what?

Well they have. Twice. That's Putin's big card and why he can now rattle harder than NATO, which of course he's going to do. The world looks very different when you're on the other side of a face-off with an organisation co-founded by the only nation in history to use these things.

nomoretoriesforme · 14/09/2024 01:16

It's a definite possibility.
No one expected US to drop atomic bombs on Japan in 1945 but they've done it. Politicians truly do not care about us plebs.

Ohjustalittle · 14/09/2024 01:20

unsync · 13/09/2024 20:07

Absolutely no point in worrying about stuff over which you have no control. TBH it felt more likely in the 80s.

I remember watching the film "Threads" in primary school. It was traumatic, but I agree with you. It's out of our control.

maybeiknew · 14/09/2024 07:26

WinterMorn · 14/09/2024 00:52

Realistically though, is a life consigned to a bunker a life worth living? It’s existing and nothing else.

From the perspective of most people yes - exactly.

Putin im not so sure shares the same thought processes as the majority. He’s not getting any younger and will know that plus who knows what his actual health status is, he also I assume holds a massive and huge nostalgia for the days of Russian power and huge territory and wants his name in the history books - for good or bad (in his opinion it will be good). He likely has a bunker made to luxury standards with the highest levels of technology, he doesn’t need to live out his whole life there, only the remainder of it.
I think he doesn’t value human life as much as others I think he values his image, and his Russian power . I don’t feel that mutually assured destruction is the deterrent we need it to be in the case of certain individuals. I just hope those around him have more influence on him than his own conscience probably does.

Newbutoldfather · 14/09/2024 08:32

@maybeiknew ,

I agree, on the whole, with your post.

But he does have children, including two young boys with his mistress. And we have to hope that might make him think twice.

But I think the fact that Biden is pulling back from using long range missiles on Russian territory means that he has intelligence that they are seriously thinking about using them.

The thing about MAD is that it is the ultimate brinksmanship. Ukraine fires long range missiles into Russia, Russia detonates a small tactical nuke in Ukraine, the U.S take out all Russian assets outside Russia including the Black Sea Fleet, as they have said they would do……and then what?!

No one wants global Armageddon and it won’t take place suddenly but once the dominoes start falling, it is hard to see it ending anywhere else.

I quite like (in an intellectual) sense the hypothesis that the reason that there are no intelligent species with the capacity for interstellar travel in the universe is that it is inevitable that once they have the capacity to destroy themselves with nukes, they always do.

AgentProvocateur · 14/09/2024 08:34

It’s pointless worrying about it. You can’t change it. Live for today.

MigGril · 14/09/2024 08:52

WinterMorn · 14/09/2024 00:52

Realistically though, is a life consigned to a bunker a life worth living? It’s existing and nothing else.

But that isn't actually what happens in a real nuclear war. I think a lot of novels get it totally wrong looking at the actually facts and how they originally planned for the cold War. The bunkers whereonly designed for living in for months while the initial strike happened and to let the majority of the radiation disapate.

Radiation used in most nuclear weapons is actually quite short lived. Those who would die from radiation exposure actually die in the blast.

Have a look at some YouTube videos on the secret Nuclear bunker in Essex. They tell you how the government had planned for the cold War. There planning will be different now but some of the info is still relevant.

I'm not to worried about it as if we had a full on War, we most likely all be dead especially if you live in a city. Or near any military base's, I'm fairly sure where we are there would be several sticks close to us that would mean we'd be gone in the first strick.

rainbowstardrops · 14/09/2024 09:52

SerenityNowInsanityLater · 13/09/2024 21:54

You know what OP, listen to some good military and political analysts who know the history (and all the historical and current beefs) intimately. They’ve played a part in it so they have solid insight and they’re not at all scary to listen to. Those guys are the cool heads.

You’ll actually feel better listening to them. They know the lay of the land and it’s so interesting listening to the strategies (and lack of!) that our leaders utilise and count on working in their favour. It really is one big willy waltz, to add to the willy waving sentiment upthread.

If you want any recommendations, I’ll PM you.

Could you message me too please as I'd be interested in this.

JaninaDuszejko · 14/09/2024 10:03

Putin's major ally is China. They are richer and more powerful than Russia and will not want him to set off a nuclear missile. It won't happen.

TTSSRPBT · 14/09/2024 10:09

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

SerenityNowInsanityLater · 14/09/2024 10:53

I’m not trying to come across as ‘Putin, my man, w’sup my bro?’ but, and I say this as a fear diffuser, not a side taker, Putin is extremely intelligent, strategic, methodical. He’s Russian. Russians don’t all go in at once. They play the long game. Russia has a loooong ass history and cultural pride that is different to say, my culture. I’m American. I was raised on a hysterical fear of Twilight Zone nuclear winters becoming a reality. Different strokes.
Remember who’s dropped the nukes: My country. I’m always more worried about US response and approach to conflict. We’re rather knee jerk and c’mon, we manufactured Dick Cheney. We’re the scary ones here! 😆

OP this is for you:
There are 3 things that win a war: population, wealth, weapons.

There are 2 things Putin wants to remain under Russian control: The ethnically Russian Donbas region and the Crimea (Sevastopol).

There is 1 thing he does not want and that’s NATO expansion. And NATO is expanding, has expanded. Ukraine as a potential NATO member is like Putin’s worst nightmare. It’s right there on his doorstep and this is a step-up in aggression towards Russia. It is what it is. But this is one root of the conflict. Putin doesn’t like NATO bases and missiles on his borders.

As for willy waving:
Russia has more power but the US, I believe, has better long range weapons. New ones that Russia doesn’t know how to shoot down. That’s a big threat and gives Putin food for thought.

That said, it would be really stupid for America to give those missiles to Ukraine to use. And America knows this. The bold incursion into Kursk, inside Russia ultimately weakened Ukraine’s manpower because they had to take a bunch of their own men off their most important front in order to go into Russia. Short term bravery by the Ukrainians, long term weakness. A lesson for NATO. American has taken note.

The important thing to remember is that using those long range weapons on Russian soil would absolutely seal Ukraine’s already extremely shaky fate, a fate that America has a responsibility now to defend. America cannot go back on its word. It won’t. Nor can it go all scorched earth and destroy its own interest (Ukraine) just to exert power over and pressure on Russia. Ukraine will not survive if there is a major and catastrophic attack on Russian soil. Everyone knows this. And everyone knows that this cannot happen.

Ukraine won’t ‘win’ this war. But Ukraine needs to not be totally destroyed in the process.
And its biggest allies owe it to the Ukrainian people to ensure that a post war Ukraine (we don’t know how this will look) survives and had some capacity to function. I don’t think the US will allow Ukraine to be annihilated. I could be totally wrong. My country is a little nutty and hegemonic. Anyway, Putin wants his Crimean ports and land that he believes should be Russian. Whatever. That’s his journey.
That’s what he wants. Not European domination. Russia doesn’t have the economy to gather a renewed interest in an Eastern Bloc version 2.0. This is not what Putin wants. That would exhaust Russia’s economy and forces and it would be superfluous for Russia. He doesn’t want a European land grab.

I see all sides so please don’t think I’m pro any side. I just want people to stop dying on fronts!

Anyway…
I think Ukraine will be pushed to the brink of existence (I mean, it’s already there), but the outcome here is that Ukraine has to somehow survive and exist (Russia will likely get the Donbas region). It just has to somewhat survive. It would be an embarrassment for America if Ukraine didn’ survive. And it would be a tragedy that no leader wants, even Putin.

We’re at the crossroads. My prediction, based on listening to those old, wise analysts who’ve seen kingdoms rise and fall a multitude of times, is that this war will end this winter or next spring and not by nuclear means. I hope I’m right. But this is a real moment that requires very cool heads, a dying breed. But they do prevail.
It’s 90 seconds to midnight. Our leaders need to use diplomacy and less arms. This is the time for discussion and negotiation. Not fanatical rhetoric.

nomoretoriesforme · 14/09/2024 12:34

@SerenityNowInsanityLater
Absolutely agree with you but prepare for pile on from echo chamber brigade. They got their own personal thread and will not allow any deviation/ debate.

Newbutoldfather · 14/09/2024 12:57

I do find it bizarre how almost childish and idealistic some of our leaders are, or at least seem to be, compared to a generation ago.

Of course we don’t want Ukraine to lose but to trade a bit of Ukraine for long term peace seems like a no brainer to me, regardless of what Zelensky wants.

People seem to have forgotten realpolitik and long term thinking. Of course, if you are Ukrainian, it is a tragedy, but grotty little wars and territory grabs happen all over the world with our connivance (Israel’s settlements in the occupied territories springs to mind).

Putin won’t reach for another country. This isn’t WW2 all over again. He has been severely bloodied. He would love to sneak back to Russia claiming victory (a pyrrhic victory really) and live out his days with his riches and reputation.

Even if you think it is 1/1,000 that he would use a nuke, the risk assessment given the cost is still pretty negative.