Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

Duncan Fisher: Stop ignoring fathers when babies are born

271 replies

Tom · 14/04/2008 09:53

The Independent. Monday, 14 April 2008

The only time that attention to fathers is really exercised is when a father is violent.

Consider the new mother who has just had a Caesarean. She needs help to pick up and settle the baby, on a ward where the midwives are overstretched. Or consider the new mother who cannot walk and whose baby is on the special care baby unit, two wards away. She needs the baby's father to help her speedily transfer expressed milk to the newborn ? but he has access only during "visiting hours".

In the NHS you are either a "patient" or a "visitor". And 30 years after it became normal for a father to attend baby's birth, there are still no formal NHS-wide standards for what he needs to know. Nor is there any formal guidance on how he can provide extra support to a mother who is sick or incapacitated after the birth.

Perhaps the ultimate expression of the "nanny state" is when a couple have just had a baby and ? at this heightened family experience ? the hospital says "now you have to part company ? dad, go home". Setting aside any opinions about the father's right to stay with his family, regularly excluding fathers from maternity services in this, and many other ways, has a detrimental effect on mothers and babies.

The NHS does not even have a system of formally registering who the father is, let alone formally assessing his own needs ? does he smoke? Does he know how to support breastfeeding? When my two children were born, my partner was asked only one question about me ? does he have any genetic abnormalities in his family? I was not even asked my name. And yet research shows that, when it comes to the health of mother and baby ? smoking, breastfeeding, depression ? I am the biggest influence. I am uniquely able to support her and my baby and I am uniquely able to screw them both up. Despite the enlightened work of countless midwives and birthing units who genuinely see that a birth is a family event that needs as light a touch as possible from professionals, the NHS continues to commission a system designed for the 1950s. Every maternity unit is filled with fathers ? well over 90 per cent are involved at some point before, during or after the birth. And yet, high-level policy debates in the NHS can continue for hours as if men simply did not exist.

The only time that attention to fathers is really exercised is when a father is violent. A focus on violence is absolutely right, but what if as much energy was expended on mobilising the positive support that the vast majority of fathers provide, or could provide, to mother and baby?

Firstly, fathers would be registered into maternity services and formally engaged with. The failure of a father to show up would result in an enquiry ? no compulsion, just an informed conversation with the mother about what she wants and what is best for baby when it comes to making sure the father is informed and positively engaged.

All health information would be routinely communicated to both parents ? breastfeeding, smoking, mental health, vaccinations. Mother-only provision should always be available but as special provision for special needs, not the default. And if the father is a source of problems, it is no good the NHS just walking away from it ? that won't stop him causing problems the moment the baby is back at home. Fathers in this situation should be treated exactly as mothers in the same situation: extra engagement, not less.

At the heart of the problem is still the cultural expectation that babies are mum's business only. As one young black father said to a government group on children's services recently: "It is too easy for young dads to walk away from their responsibilities."

What happens when a father does not engage? Absolutely nothing. The moral panic only sets in later when the same father fails to pay child support ? then suddenly he is reclassified from a "nobody" to a "feckless father". In the US, where they trialled a simple process of midwives talking to young fathers when they visited their partners, child support payments went up.

Things have to change. When a baby is born, fathers are as responsible for the little one as mothers are. At every point in the process, an expectation of his full involvement should be communicated to both parents.

And this new vision needs to extend far beyond maternity services. Employers still expect that only women, and not men, will compromise work for caring responsibilities. The Government has just introduced a system where fathers get two weeks and mothers get 52 weeks ? the biggest difference in leave entitlement of any country in the world. If we keep going backwards: fathers will be excluded more and mothers will pay a heavier price for being left alone on the high throne of motherhood.

The writer is the chief executive of the Fatherhood Institute.

OP posts:
doggiesayswoof · 14/04/2008 14:06

Yes Aitch - my dh said he felt totally patronised by the antenatal classes (NHS in our case). He had done some reading - surely not that unusual? - and the assumption was that the men would know absolutely nothing. They were pandered to in a big way.

TigerFeet · 14/04/2008 14:10

Hear hear doggiesayswoof

Maternity wards are in general woefully understaffed. The one I was on certainly was. My long waffly post was just stating that even the limited resources available are often misused.

I would also speculate that many partners wouldn't necessarily help much. There are plenty of people out there who would expect to be waited on hand and foot if they spend a couple of days in hospital alongside the postnatal patient and her baby.

MrsTittleMouse · 14/04/2008 14:14

I think that generally the inclusion of men is about right. DH came with me to the first antenatal appointment (at my request - I wanted support in case the MW didn't take my concerns seriously), but he won't come to any of the others. He also came to the ultrasounds. He came to the antenatal classes when we had DD (not sure that I'll bother with them this time round), and was there during my labour and delivery.
Actually, one of the things that really annoyed me at the antenatal classes was that they let the DH/DPs use the toilets at the antenatal clinic. These would be the toilets that had the domestic abuse information, including the special code to use to the MW if your DH/DP was present and you wanted to tell the MW you needed help without him knowing. Agree with everyone else that you can't ignore the fact that pregnancy is the time when I woman is most likely to be abused.

misdee · 14/04/2008 14:17

i just asked dh about his views on this, he said it wouldnt be possible unless every person had a private room. but even then he doesnt think it would work, as it would mean too many people.

having spent a lot of times in various hospitals, and living on hospital food, he has some idea of how bad/good things can be on a ward.

TigerFeet · 14/04/2008 14:18

Oh and yesyesyes to monkeytrousers re. enforced equality.

I would love to work part time. I would also have loved to have more than 6 months off on ML (yes, actually I do want it all ). Unfortunately finances meant I had to return to work F/T once I stopped receiving maternity allowance. DH, otoh, was happy to go back to work after a couple of weeks and feels that his work/life balance is fine with his F/T job. Why should we be forced into feeling differently for politically correct reasons? I concede that fathers should be allowed rights to request flexible working if they want to, but I would say that many wouldn't want to.

wrt sharing maternity leave - I agree that it should be possible up to a point - but at the end of the day it is the mother who has given birth and may well have long term physical aftereffects, the mother who breastfeeds (if applicable), so it makes sense to me that the mother should be entitled to the lion's share of the available ML.

AitchTwoOh · 14/04/2008 14:18

i'd be inclined to take your dh's word on the subject as gospel, misdee.

Tom · 14/04/2008 14:29

I don't think anyone has said "poor me, me too' or anything of the like - I suspect that someone is projecting their own feelings about men onto this issue.

To be very clear, the campaign is for:

MOTHERS to have the RIGHT for their partner to be with them after the birth.

Hence...

If she doesn't want him there... he's not there.

If he behaves unacceptably, he gets kicked out.

If there's any forcing people into gender roles they don't want, I'd look at the system that gives 12 months off to women, but only 2 weeks off for dads, with no option to transfer - how's that for women who run their own company, or who are the major breadwinner!?

It's actually coming from a concern about the mother's welfare, and seeing that dads can often be a resource to both midwives and mothers, and are often involved in baby care. Heck - some mums actually go back to work and it's the dad who looks after the baby - but if he's not there when key info is passed on, the baby can be left with a dangerously uninformed carer.

My own experience was my son's mum had a caesarean, so I was looking after him full time for the first 3/4 hours of his life.

She was then transferred to a post natal ward and I was kicked out overnight. Instead of having me there to change him, clean him and help him latch onto her breast for feeding, she was at the mercy of two overstretched midwives, trying to care for 20 women. When I returned in the morning, it took me two hours to calm her and the baby down. She got the heck out of there as soon as possible so she could have my help available 24 hours a day instead of just 12 hours a day.

As for resources, I find the story of the maternity unit which had a shortage of midwives because of the flu, so they asked all the dads to come to the unit to help care for their partners very interesting.

As for dads spreading stress/anxiety - I agree - a big problem. Part of it is lack of info/preparation for dads - it's the unknown that stresses people out. In all our advice to dads on what to do at the birth, we emphasise the critical importance of keeping your own anxiety to yourself - see here:

Article for dads - how you can help at the birth

Lots of interesting thoughts here - but I think the 'power grab' idea is a red herring.

OP posts:
evenhope · 14/04/2008 14:29

Our hospital's visiting hours are 10-1pm, 3-8pm with partners only 1-3pm (strictly enforced). I had DD by CS and while it was helpful to have DH there from 10 till 8pm I wouldn't have wanted him around any longer than that- nor everyone else's DH as well.

Most of my AN visits were at home. The MW always tried to include DH but he stayed downstairs out of the way because he chose to. I made him come to the amniocentesis and the ECV but he really wasn't interested in being "involved" in the routine appts.

I'm quite suspicious of men who have to be over-involved with everything. Just seems like they want to throw their weight around. It isn't about them.

As for the disparity in Leave between mother and father...WTF? When science enables men to be pregnant and give birth that's the time for them to get more leave. Mr Fisher presumably doesn't realise how long it takes to physically recover from giving birth (and being pregnant)

misdee · 14/04/2008 14:31

aitch, i have spent a lot of time as a visitor as well at our local hospital when he started to go downhill, i had one lovely nurse sneak me a leftover/spare lunch as she could see i was very heavily pregnant and had spent hours on MAU waiting with dh to see a doctor without any food or drink.

AitchTwoOh · 14/04/2008 14:32

lolol at 'i suspect that someone is projecting their own feelings about men onto this issue', you might as well just ask if we're on our periods, TOm.

that whole article is a bleat, i suspect that your inability to see that is down to your projecting your feelings about men (that they are brilliant and great) onto this issue.

and it's not about women who want our own partners there, we ALL do. we just don't want anyone else's there so how exactly do you propose to square that away in an NHS that can't even afford midwives?

Tom · 14/04/2008 14:33

Between 4 - 6 weeks we were told by our doctor, for recovery from an emergency caesarean.

Why 12 months off then?

Should be like in Iceland, where mums get 4 months, dads get 4 months and the couple gets 4 months to split as they want.

95% of Icelandic dads spend 4 months looking after their baby on their own while the mum works - net result is that 95% of Icelandic babies have TWO parents who know what they're doing, not one.

OP posts:
AitchTwoOh · 14/04/2008 14:34

and who's goinig to decide when someone's behaving unreasonably? the nursing staff? shouldn't they be nursing? or will the blokes get together and 'sort it aht', gangster-style?

Tom · 14/04/2008 14:36

AitchTwooOh
I've dealt with too many domestic violence cases to be that naive about men, sorry.

How? More resources for Maternity units all round - we're right behind the RCM and others on that. (I say 'we', but I don't work for FI anymore! I just spend my time trying to inform men about pregnancy/birth/kids issues!)

OP posts:
misdee · 14/04/2008 14:36

maybe 12months off to try and meet targets for breastfeeding tom? can you breastfeed?

actually i admit i am clueless about how much time women get off as i am a SAHM for my children and main carer for my dh.

Tom · 14/04/2008 14:37

WHO/UK Target for breastfeeding is 6 months misdee

OP posts:
misdee · 14/04/2008 14:38

6months for 'exclusive' breastfeeding, personally i breastfed for over 2years.

AitchTwoOh · 14/04/2008 14:39

i don't think you're sorry, Tom, are you? so don't say it.

look, your first recourse was to suggest that we were projecting our negative feelings about men onto the article, which tbh is outrageously offensive and patronising and gives me a good idea of your position on women. it wasn't enough for you to say, 'hang on, where's the poor me?' was it? oh no.

and never mind your rights, what about your partner's right to be properly nursed? you seriously think that there will be enough money for both? uh, o-kay.

and how are you getting past the point that we all want our own partners there, just not you? more money again, i guess... to which i repeat, uh, o-kay...

AitchTwoOh · 14/04/2008 14:41

gosh, Tom, i hope you don't tell your fellow dads that 6 months is enough... the WHO target is bfing for 2 years, you know.

Deux · 14/04/2008 14:41

Good God, men'll be having the babies next.

I think this whole issue is complete twaddle. There was some insufferably trite bloke on BBC Radio London talking about this this morning, extrapolating his experience to the whole population. He sounded like he had a real chip on his shoulder and he did come across as 'me, me, me'.

Women need more resources in the form of midwives. I wouldn't expect my DH to coach my breast-feeding! I too find something quite suspicious about over-involved men. Ego problems. Not sure why my DH would have to come to ante-natal appointments either. 12 hours visiting seems adequate and I personally don't want to see loads of strange blokes waltzing around.

Talk about the tail wagging the dog.

misdee · 14/04/2008 14:42

how about more money overall for the NHS. its scaringly stretched to its limit. i have spent a lot of time in hospitals, as i will keeop saying, and its shocks and saddens me about the lack of funds in hospitals.

Graciefer · 14/04/2008 14:43

Talking of offensive and patronising:

By AitchTwoOh on Mon 14-Apr-08 14:03:29
can your dh not read, graciefer? there are loads of books out there, some even written in easy short bursts so that men can understand them.

I guess sometimes it is better to agree to disagree.

misdee · 14/04/2008 14:43

o haitych, thanks for saying it was two years target. i thought it was, but it seems like ages ago i read up on any breastfeeding matters.

whooo hooo i met the WHO targets! yippee!!

AitchTwoOh · 14/04/2008 14:44

gotta say, misdee, i'd put money into heart transplantation and midwives (you know, just general keeping people alive stuff) than i would to pandering to the bruised egos of a bunch of new dads.

doggiesayswoof · 14/04/2008 14:44

Gracie, I think that was a joke there.

misdee · 14/04/2008 14:46

aitch, did u know the LVAD was a trial? they are trying to get funding to take it nationwide for all, not just trial it. (its at end of trial now). must start another thread later on

Swipe left for the next trending thread