Tories to remove right of appeal for excluded pupils

[SenoraPostrophe]

The Tories have announced they will make it easier for schools to expel disruptive pupils, removing the right of parents to appeal, and the obligation for schools to take pupils excluded from other schools.

story here

I know they're the Tories, but I'm quite at the naivity of these plans tbh. what will happen to the excluded children? I don't see them announcing lots of extra money for the specialist schools that would be needed if these pupils aren't to be thrown on the scrapheap.

So where will the really troubled youngsters end up then?
Obviously not in Notting Hill

So long as these children (and ergo the class they left behind) get access to such specialist support I totally agree with you Malory. I thought that this sort of provision was patchy around the UK, with the sort of consequence that you are facing.
(Have a cousin who works in this sort of unit, I know from speaking to her a little how much they can help these kids and what hard work it is)

but if you remove the right to appeal, you make it too easy for borderline pupils to be excluded.

also while I agree specialist units are good, they cost a lot of money, and I really can't see the Tories paying for more of them.

why can't he be excluded now, malory? surely it's not because his parents will appeal?

I teach a class of 30 standing next to one child's desk for 1.5 hours. If I move away he invariably leaps up and thumps someone. He will probably be excluded within the next few months, because he is on his final warning. Then I will be able to take some notice of the other 29.

I think disruptive kids should be removed the first day they cause trouble to allow the others to get on with their education.

Having said that I don't like the sound of no appeal. The reason we have appeals in court is that sometimes a conviction will be wrong. The same principle applies here.

The kid need not be allowed back in class while the appeal is going on.

The way I read it it is down to the head's discretion? I think it is a good idea as long as there is somewhere for these children to go. There is a school where I live that is EBD (I think, emotional/behavioural?) and it works absolute wonders with the children who attend. Sadly the school has to fight all the time for funding.

can't there just be a class within the schools to deal with these pupils, rather than totally excluding them. would be cheaper too wouldn't it.

I'm not saying the Tories are right but the current situation where a school with capacity is not allowed to refuse an excluded pupil a place is really unfair. The result is that the undersubscribed schools have to take in these excluded children to a disproportionate extent compared with the 'popular' schools thereby contributing to the vicious circle affecting 'poorly' performing schools.

I agree with MaloryTowers. I have been in that situation too - it is SO hard. For everyone concerned.

I was waiting for the Conservatives to announce the extra spending for the specialist units which would make their policy work. Sadly though it didn't seem forthcoming.

I have also worked with a school with an EBD unit. Imo there should be a purpose built unit, as a traditional school setting is not suitable.

If a child was excuded for bullying, for example, you need them out of the school altogether SEA. Not just in a different room onsite. There is certainly a place for in-school units, but also for permanent exclusion.

It's a tricky one, but I do know tht there is little more dispiriting as a teacher than having a child return after an exclusion is overturned on appeal.

I wouldn't want to see 'borderline' pupils excluded, however I also think something has to be done about the difficulty schools currently have with permanently excluding very disruptive/violent children. My mum was a teacher until last year and there was a boy at her school who set fire to a girl's hair! He was excluded but at appeal the school were told they had to take him back because it was a first offence!

Aren't there currently targets for the maximum number of kids schools can exclude?! Target-culture gone MAD IMO.

Agree with MT, special EBD units can do amazing things, because the staff have the training and the right ratios of students to staff. Have seen lots of kids come back into MS education massivly improved after some time in the local PRU

Hi, i'm new

I worked at an EBD school for 2 years until i recently gave up to look after my new baby.

The problem with the system at the moment is that children can very quickly become labelled with a full range of acronyms which have a massive bearing on their school career. This may be the fault of anxious parents or over-zealous doctors and local authorities but either way it has a huge impact on the children's education.

When the child becomes labelled with these initials it tends to proceeed who they are and they become judged by what people expect them to be like before they have the opportunity to prove different.

While I am aware that some children prove a management problem and impact on the education of others, I am also acutely aware that it is sometimes easier to exclude 'problem' children, attach labels and pass them to a 'specialist' school than deal with the behaviour first hand. Due to lack of funding these schools then become merely holding places for children who have already been written off because they are legally obliged to attend some form of education.

I am the parent of a disruptive pupil, who is also a non attender. We in no way support his behaviour and have spent huge amounts of time trying to improve things with school.

If he was ever excluded however, we would appeal because there is no alternative on offer to us. His school have removed and replaced him in lessons on numerous occasions. What they never do is offer support for him to catch up, so his behaviour and learning are not improving.He spent a week prior to Easter in isolation, whioch involved doing worksheets from a couple of subjects. These were not marked and when he finished them he was not offered more.

We, as parents, are struggling because we can see his teacher's viewpoint. But exclusion without appeal, and without a decent educational alternative will result in written off kids with no achievements. I completely agree with dadEdaycare about 'specialist' being an excuse to sideline difficult pupils.

But in most MS schools permanent exclusion isn't a quite decision. Where I work it takes a long time, with a number of other sanctions in place, including short term exclusions before it is considered for a child.

the sad reality is that for some children MS schooling isn't appropriate because we lack the resources we need to manage their behaviour appropriately. And while their behaviour isn't being addressed their education suffers as well as the education of the others in the class. Now while the latter shouldn't be a concern of the disruptive child, It does have to be mine, as the classroom teacher.

I would agree that the lack of EBD provision outside of school is a very real worry, but lack of provision inside the schools is just as bad (the work sheets issue that you raise wd) and also affects larger numbers of students

I read that 75% of chn that were permenantly excluded had SN, and of that group 80% had dyslexia. Seems to me like an excuse for the Tories to wipe their hands clean of this group of chn rather than educating them.

I wouldn't be surprised at the 75%, but would have thought that the dyslexia stat is rather high (IME anyway)

I think that a great deal more provision needs to be put in place for excluded children, but I would also say that the current situation, where children are either in the classroom disrupting or on internal/short term exclusion with very scanty education provision, isn't ideal either. For the excluded child and the rest of the class.

waggledancer - how would you respond if your ds were offered a temporary placement in a PRU with a managed return to mainstream school?

I thought the dyslexia stat high also but presumed it overlapped with other conditions such as ADHD rather than being solely dyslexia.

That would, 'sit' better with what I have seen. IME children with 'pure' dyslexia are the 'best' included of children with SEN (best being a very relative term but even Warnock admits that dyslexia provision is better than the rest of SEN provision)

Only those who are diagnosed tho' MB. Many, many chn are not. And a large proportion of the prison population are dyslexic also, which is indicative of an inadequate education.