Tories to remove right of appeal for excluded pupils

[SenoraPostrophe]

The Tories have announced they will make it easier for schools to expel disruptive pupils, removing the right of parents to appeal, and the obligation for schools to take pupils excluded from other schools.

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I know they're the Tories, but I'm quite at the naivity of these plans tbh. what will happen to the excluded children? I don't see them announcing lots of extra money for the specialist schools that would be needed if these pupils aren't to be thrown on the scrapheap.

A huge aount of the prison ppulation are dylsexic - some diagnosed at school, others not. We assess for dyslexia at the prison.

However we also have an awful lot who use dyslexia as a big excuse for their wrong doings, esp from those who find out the are dyslexic at the prison - a case of "oh well then, that is why I DID IT.." We have to be very careful of how it is addressed aand dealt with at times.

That's very interesting Hulababy. Do you also get a larger than usual amount or prisoners with ADHD, AS etc?

I'd bet next moths wages that they do.

Offhand I can't think of a single child excluded from the school I work in who has a dx of dyslexia.

Most common would be EBD, rapidly followed by ADHD/ASD (often co-morbid)

Wish I could remember where I read that statistic. I'm studying SpLD at the moment so it will be from a legitimate source - I'm reading loads about it so can't remember exactly where it's from. Will see if I made a note of it.

I wouldn't be that surprised it it was a co-morbid condition, but I don't think that I have ever seen a child 'just' with dyslexia (or praxia for that matter) excluded.

But I would agree that unmet needs are at the bottom of many, many exclusions

We would respond positively to any alternative provision, so long as it was to his benefit and not long term.

My ds has no excuse for his problems, other than that he is a teenager with no ability to see past his need for instant gratification, and a peer group with more influence than his parents or teachers

Do you have any provision for PRUs in your area WD?

I ask because I know that they are oftenvery underfunded. I have seen great results from boys very like your DS after they went to the PRU.....many returing to MS sucessfully

Something else....and sorry if this is old hat for you.....would the school consider moving your ds to 'Top sets' where he would lack an appreciative audience for his poor behavior? Again, I have seen this work well, boys who were preducted F grades getting C grades for example

cornsilk - I don't come across many with AS I have to say; think I have come across one person with AS diagnosis in my couple of ears or so there.

We do have some with ADHD, although not medicated for it AFAIK. Some have had it diagnosed since childhood at school. Not loads but some. Many may well have been undiagnosed though as ADHD really wasn't as well known about when many where at school.

We have others with learning difficulties too, but not many I have to say.

The majority do not have these learning difficulties (bar dyslexia issue). But significant minorities are affected.

The amount of paper work a school has to undertake to exclude a child is enormous. Its not something that happens likely.

I think the right to appeal should be there, but limited. Otherwise parents will resort to the courts which are expensive. (Like the stupid girl in Luton who wanted to wear a burka to school.)

An EBD child in mainstream often has multiple fixed term exclusions. This can cause them to lose weeks and weeks of education. They also lose lessons by being put in internal isolation. Frankly being excluded from class is not inclusion.

Its not just the affect on their education, but the education of all the other children.

My son's school's answer seems to be to move him down sets or out altogether. There is talk of increasing his college attendence, where he has a vocational course once a week. However he was predicted some A grades at GCSE and we're not ready to curtail all his options just yet.

As far as PRU provision in our area, I don't know. But will follow this up. Thanks for your input

RT, you put everything I wanted to say, but in a far clearer way.

ask his head of pastoral care if he can be moved into top sets on a trail basis (say two weeks under close monitoring by the staff)

I've never seen a child disrupt in that situation.....the people in the class will not be impressed by poor behavior and without peer approbation the silliness often stops

MB that's a really good idea.

The notion of underfunding is not necessarily the be all and end all either.

The EBD school I worked in was particularly well funded (more than the average public school per pupil) and still many of the children we get have no reasonable hope of getting back into mainstream.

The children have a magnitude of opportunities available to them inc. the option to do more practical based college courses e.g. mechanics, sport and engineering, and an excellent extra-curricular program inc. sailing clubs, climbing, swimming, gliding, caravans here and abroad and all the latest technology and despite this hardly any return to 'normal' schools.

In a lot of cases the children are fully aware of the circumstances they are in and are fully prepared to abuse the system enough to get what they want but still ensure they are not good enough to be seen as reformed.

To help them with this, most of them acquire any number of acronyms to explain why they are how they are, which again helps to ensure they wont have to go back to mainstream. A lot of the times (but not always) these labels are inappropriate but just a way of doctors explaining to frantic parents why their DS/DD is beating up teachers and peers.

I think that schools need to prepare children for life rather than be thinking about getting children back into mainsteam. Does it matter that these children do not return to normal school. What matters is that grow up into adults who can hold down a job and don't end up in jail.

The problem with EBD children is that they attract very little sympathy. In a mainstream school teachers do not have time or the desire to help them with their emotional problems. Many mainstream schools give the bottom sets to the NQT, but in a special school you have experienced teachers who often have done specialist diplomas as well as teacher training.

A lot of children at special schools are in local authority care. Some of them have had really bad family circumstances. It doesn't excuse their behaviour, but understanding why a child acts in the way they do is necessary to help the child.

It may seem unfair that special schools have more resources, but the idea is to boost the confidence of the child, rather than the school being a holding pen. A lot of EBD children have major mental health issues which need to be over come. Most the money in EBD schools is spent on staff because low staff ratios are needed to keep the staff safe!

Compared to mainsteam schools some special schools are actually quite short of resources because there is not the ecomony of scale that a large secondary schools has.

Other children have major learning difficulties. They would rather be seen as being naughty than stupid. In a special school they get work that is of an level for them or they get intensive help with learning to read. Once they can do the work they have no reason to be bored or climb under the table.

Having experienced first hand exactly what you talk about ReallyTired I can only agree with a lot of what you are saying.

Unfortunately however, in my experience, a lot of the children are protected in an EBD school from the impact their behaviour can have in society and in a lot of cases pay lip service to what they are supposed to be learning in terms of modifying their behaviour. They 'get away with' unacceptable behaviour because its expected of them and they then have real problems when leaving this protected environemnt when they swear or abuse the wrong person in the wider world and end up getting a good hiding, or worse, end up in prison.

I've been on the appeal panel for exclusions and it can be a real eye-opener (sometimes the child and parents don't even bother to show up to state their case and those who do turn up can sometimes prove why the school shouldn't accept them back.)

I do think that for far too long the emphasis and attention has been on the one or two disruptive children rather than the majority of the class and that has to be addressed. As mentioned specialist classes with specialist teachers are the only way forward.

But from experience it can sometimes be more about the parent than the child. It isn't just what happens between 8:50-3:20 but what the child is getting at home. Exclusions should involve some sort of social contact with the parents who can often be the reason the child is reacting like that in the first place. Far more than peers or social situation.

dadEdaycare,
I think that children with severe EBD are likely to do badly in life wherever they are sent to school. Some children are so screwed up by their parents it would take a mircle to sort them out.

Prehaps one difference is that at least the EBD child at an EBD school will learn to read and write and possibly get a few GCSEs. If they don't learn a few basic skills then they stand zero chance of being independent.

I work at an MLD school which is also pretty sheltered. The children are mostly well behaved, but have very low intelligence. Many of them struggle once they leave the sheltered environment of a special school.

However I think the sort of children who need a special school are likely to struggle as adults where ever they they go to school.

The children I know will have major learning difficulties for the rest of their lives. No amount of money will put their problems right.