Is life really worse under Labour or am I taking the Torygraph (essential reading chez Moondog) too seriously? Particularly interested in what you old gimmers who remember thatcher have to say.

[moondog]

Thanking yew.

Don't forget this is the woman who thought there was no such thing as society, just individual men and women and their families. She also thought that if you were still getting the bus at 30 you were a failure. Imo she played a big part in our obsession with the trappings of celebrity and wealth, and our overly individualistic ideas. Old cow.

I still get the bus at 40 so what would she make of me?

I certainly wouldn't want a return to Thatcherism, but Blairism has been pretty disasterous in many respects too, leaving me thoroughly disillusioned with the lot of them.

Life is probably better now for those living below the poverty line but there are still far too many of them. And one criticism of the Tories under Thatcher was the glorification of greed and wealth, yet ironically the gap between rich and poor has increased since Labour came to power and city types continue to receive staggeringly high bonuses which in turn helps to drive up property prices and inflation. Labour has done nothing to address this and I'm not sure that they could as it's a global phenomenon.

I think new labour and thatcherite years are not poles apart and there is a feeling in teh air again that those with less are going to get shafted by inflation crashing housing market and general doom

Haven't read the whole thread but lived through the Thatcher years and things definitely better now.

Only problem is felt somehow complicit in the Iraq war having voted Labour - if the Tories had done it wouldn't have felt quite so involved somehow. Will never forgive Blair for that, and didn't vote Labour again while he was still PM.

show me evidence, please that the gap between rich and poor has increased since 1997?

I can't be arsed with DM-speak

And moondog, where are you? Have you buggered off now you've set cat among pigeons?

I wonder if anyone knows what has happened to BF under Tories/Labour? And whether there are any significant correlations?

I'm off now, gotta go hoist my red flag and snog Arthur Scargill.

blair is the son of thatcher and there is no choice nor a fag paper of a difference between them and the tories now..infact they nick the tories ideas and get away with it...

i do remember thatcher and the miners strike, yts, endorsement and encouragement of the loadsamoney thuggery I'm alright jack attitude, privatisations (including the railways which are now heavily subsidised by public money)
and I joined in on the poll tax riots!..it was scary but had to be done..

now we cant get near downing st to protest democratically wtf..
this government is so controlling and full of spin its overwhelming really

the problem i have with new labour was the expectation of what they would do in power it never happened
the tories never fail to deliver what their supporters expect..

and am glad that in places like scotland where they could weigh the votes for them they have been replaced by snp, they should realise their heartlands have gone

totally agree with cammelia too
the iraq war was /is unforgiveable

i think this situation contributes heavily towards voter apathy, understandably actually...

I used to work at the Treasury and in Ken Clark's day, pre budget we used to have meetings with the Vintage Car Owners Association and the Institute of Directors. Under Gordon we saw the Child Poverty Action Group and the Federation for Small Businesses. That says it all.

The Tories frankly did not care about anyone who was not in their gang. They really were anti gay. Anti mixed communities. Anti single parents. Everything we take for granted now.

Completely agree with this:

"Do you think David Cameron would really be interested in the closure of special schools etc if he didnt have a child with profound disabilities?? I think the boy would probably be down for Eton by now if not. That was the worse thing about the Tories, the 'I'm alright Jack' attitude with no interest in those less well off, educated, deprived."

I really do remember the Tory years and will never forgive them for the inability to care about anyone but their own. I understand that the mines were on borrowed time but to just close down hundreds of towns with no thought for what would happen afterwards...

Do you think gay people would be allowed to marry under the Tories? Do you think child poverty would be the number one govt priority under the Tories? Do you think surestart would exist under the Tories? No, no and no.

Monkeybird - "DM speak" is a cheap way of dismissing anyone who disagrees with you

Re proof of growing inequality, see for instancehere

Oh and one more thing - Clause 28.

Was there ever a nastier, more bigotted piece of legislation?

I'm not gay myself but it really symbolises to me the petty bigotry of the Tories then.

What gets me is, if David Cameron is such a liberal-minded all round good chap, why was he joining the Tory party in 1988 when they were at the peak of their nastiness? Because he's not really a liberal - he's just bred for Torydom and is desperately trying to pretend that he is not really one of them.

Monkeybird, I don't think we are so far apart in our views!

I did make that statement without any evidence to back it up but will try to find a source other than the DM (god forbid that I would quote the DM!) to support what I am saying. Maybe I'm wrong anyway but my perception is that the attitude of 'greed is good' has not changed that much.

The fact that social mobility has fallen under Labour bothers me a lot.

margo and jerry
completely agree on clause 28
a stinking horror piece of legislation

should the tories call themselves New Cons?
just like the old but some might see them differently...

as an aside
I actually wonder what his legislation on cycling lanes will be now he was caught flouting road regulations?
it made me laugh, as he only cycles on a wednesday wtf is that about?
you think the blokes in the big car behind him carrying the red boxes would have told him not to go down one way streets et al...

omg! as a very old MNer who actually voted in teh 1979 elections (not for Thatcher) just let me say that although things aren't great now it was far far worse under thatcher. unemployment was very high (I owrked in the dole office for 3 years after Uni as I couldnt get anything else and it was a nightmare), miners strike, riots, racial problems, hospital waiting lists, god i could go on. think about what labour did actually achiev in thos efew heady first years and look at what the tories undid. honestly i am not keen on any of them now but dont vote tory

Oh upwind, have you even read the bullet points of the JRF report? Let alone the actual extensive research they conduct?

Even the bullet points make clear they are talking about the period between 1960 and 2000, and they explicitly say the conclusions from beyond 2000 are unclear. Since we're discussing the difference between the current/recent labour administration and the previous Tories, suffice it to say that their finding that social inequality increased in the 1980s and 90s swing it for me.

I will accept that the gap between the poorest poor and the richest rich still exist, and perhaps has widened (see, even I'm not immune to discussion). But the whole point is the Tories introduced a number of policies (yup, I can list them if you'd like me to) that increased the gap and the Labour administration have been slowly and steadily trying to introduce policies that seek to erode this gap.

God, I'm not even a strong New Labour apologist actually because I also think the Iraq debacle unforgivable. But I do think many of you are utterly deluded about the real evidence on social change.

I really am going now. No, I won't be back. Honest.

What do you mean, Kathy, by social mobility? And what is your evidence to suggest it has fallen?

See. I couldn't help myself.

Sutton Trust report on social mobility here.

Sadly I don't think voting Mr Cameron in would make things any better....

Don't go monkeybird, I'll even forgive the DM slur!

Imo the gap between richest and poorest began to increase dramatically and was encouraged in the 80's but what disappoints me is that Labour has done very little to address this apart from a bit of tinkering with tax credits etc.

SWC you are extreme patronising. And the assumptions you make are breathtaking. Sadly for you I am well informed and won't let such nonsense lie.

How old are you? Where were you brought up? Do you have any first hand knowledge of how Thatcher's policies destroyed communities over night? And that they made no serious attempt to cushion the blow. Some of these changes had to be made but Thatcher loathed consensus and preferred to attack and win rather than find a way through the problem.

Every other developed country has had to deal with globalisation, of course they have. I have lived abroad and have seen how different countries have tackled this at first hand. They have seen how "worshipping" the market, rather than working with it, has caused such problems in our country. While many politicians have admiration for some of Mrs T's foresight and policies very few would want to replicate what happened here. Celebrating greed, putting yourself first without thought for others

And the bollocks you spout about the City of London have made me laugh. Yes the liberalisation there has made it a major centre but it has had lots of negative consequences. The money has failed to trickle down to the country as a whole. The light touch regulation so attractive to those in the City is not so attractive to the country as a whole.

And don't ever, ever forget the shame of Section 28. An utter disgrace Cameron can barely rescue the Tries from twenty years later.

Life under Thatcher ... well remember "No such thing as society" "someone who is still catching the bus to work at age 30 is a loser" (that's a paraphrase, can't remember the correct words). The "me, me me" generation. The wealth gap ... I could go on.

I'm no fan of the current government but if I ever vote tory, someone shoot me.

Even though I was not working during the Thatcher years, I now live in an area which was seriously effected (or is it affected? lol).

There were strikes when the local mines closed, racial riots in the two local towns, many many people lost their homes through high interest rates.

The conservatives are not liked around here at all, similar to the north east (I think).

Since labour has been in power, industry is slowly coming back to this area. Would I really want to go back to those days in the area I live.... No.

If you are poor now, under Labour, there is a feeling and a truth that you cannot improve your life. You simply cannot climb up out of it at all.

Anyone who thinks life under Labour is anything but hellish has enough money to cushion the reality.

Thatcher was bad, but you knew the Tories were bad. Labour is worse because they pretended and lied that they would improve things but have only made it ten times worse. At least under the Tories I could afford to live and to escape once a year on holiday! Should have escaped permanently but I didn't realise things would go so wrong.

The true Labour can be seen up here in Scotland, where they were ever so slightly kicked out of office and have behaved like petulant children ever since. Why they are even buddying up with the Tories just to stick a finger up at the SNP. Watching Labour embarrass themselves in Holyrood, its like a herd of rowdy cows. They should be shamefaced.

We passed the Parly yesterday and I explained it to my dts (6) as thus: Some people in there won't agree, even if it is a good idea, simply because they don't want to be seen to accept that someone from the other side came up with a solution. Convoluted but they do know it as the Lying Place!

give me labour any day - we ahve to suffer the fucking snp - its frightening - that salmond really riles me - he is dangerous