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Is life really worse under Labour or am I taking the Torygraph (essential reading chez Moondog) too seriously? Particularly interested in what you old gimmers who remember thatcher have to say.

257 replies

moondog · 25/03/2008 21:07

Thanking yew.

OP posts:
Upwind · 27/03/2008 11:38

We have not yet had the worst of the fall out from New Labour's most disastrous policies. Northern rock has so far cost the tax payer £110 billion, who knows what the fall out from the FSA's poor regulation will be in the end?

I do think that the Tories are blamed unfairly and Labour sometimes praised excessively for effects of a global economic cycle.

Upwind · 27/03/2008 11:42

Tazmosis - interest rates have been low around the world. The Bank of England doesn't just decide arbitrarily how high they should be, and if they need to go up to 16% again there will be carnage - because Labour chose to allow an unprecedented bubble in property prices to develop.

That is not efficently controlling the economy, but creating an unsustainable boom, which they took credit for. If there is a bust, I bet they will try to avoid taking credit for that!

Peachy · 27/03/2008 11:43

Upwind do you think it's really fair to judge on what MAY happen? I feel we're very much at a testing point in Labour financial policy yes, but I would prefer to make my judgement on the actual evidence of what happens, rather than any predictions made at this stage.

Agree that ecopnomic and global factors need to be taken into acocunt- but DC et alla re hardly doing that now are they, when they are at least as relevant?
At thsi stage I am not sure which way I will vote in an election, I will make that decision based on what happens before then as it could be a while away yet.

Upwind · 27/03/2008 11:48

Peachy I agree about DC et al, and don't think much of that lot either! Like you I don't know which way I will vote. I do think we can judge Labour on what has happened and how vulnerable we are now to the credit crunch because of their policies.

DumbledoresGirl · 27/03/2008 12:25

WendyWeber - sorry was not well last night and went to bed after posting.

Well, I think the Labour govt is entirely to blame. That was my point: our circumstances have not changed in 3 years yet our disposable cincome has dropped. As far as dh and I see it, our money is now going into higher mortgage payments (thanks to increased interest rates), higher taxation, higher council tax, hugely increased amenity and food bills and ludicrous increases in anything to do with car ownership. We honestly do not spend our money on much else (eg we have not suddenly started going on expensive holidays or bought a yacht or anything else). We have not benefited from no longer having to pay for say childcare, as bozza was mentioning, because I have always stayed at home with the children. Dh has unfortunately not been awarded a higher salary, and therefore we are well placed to see that our money is not going as far as it used to.

I knw this is very selfish of me - I am not considering the state of the NHS or the education system or the country's prosperity or any other issue, but I am answering the original question as to whether or not life (for me) is better or worse under Labour.

The answer is definitely worse.

ska · 27/03/2008 14:46

for me financially and ethically it is better. having worked under thatcher, major and blair and brown i now who i prefer in terms of idealogy and in terms of actual outcomes. i am not rich but i am striving to do the best i can for e and my family (extended too) and for the wider good (working mainly in the public sector). i care about social justice in its correct meaning. toryism just doesnt deliver. i too shall dance when thatcher eventually dies.

bagsforlife · 27/03/2008 15:18

well said ska. thats exactly how I feel.

Drusilla · 27/03/2008 15:42

Haven't read whole thread (can't be arsed) but at risk of reapeating opthers two things strike me - the bloody awful mess the country was in during late 70s, and several reports I have seen in last 6 months/year saying that gap between wide and poor in this country now at highest level for 60 years.

Manictigger · 27/03/2008 15:51

This is a tricky one for me. I really hated a lot of the Thatcher policies (what she did to the miners was unforgiveable) and couldn't wait for Labour to get into power but now... after the Hutton report, all the lying about wmd, the squandering of so much money that could have done so much good in the NHS etc., I really hate Tony Blair et al for making me so cynical about politics. I think that Thatcher was openly horrible whereas Labour are just as horrible but are better at hiding it.

I think the divide between rich and poor is far greater under Labour and life is far harder financially for most people (and is going to get even harder for a lot of people very soon). Under Thatcher you didn't need a dual income to afford even the smallest, crappiest house and you didn't leave university with a 5 figure debt and the prospect of living with your parents for the next 20 years.

But maybe in 10 years I'll look back nostalgically at the Blair years

Hell, I'm turning into my father.

figroll · 27/03/2008 16:41

Although I helped by voting in Labour over 10 years ago - I wouldn't do it again!

They have created various very expensive quangoes that (as far as I can see) do very little - did the school dinners quango actually happen? What is wrong with giving control to the schools themselves?

They have also created a "target" culture in public services which has lead to widespread fiddling of figures so that govt statistics are even more crap now than they ever were. This is happening not just in the NHS where waiting times are a con, but also in education and the police force (the police I know about through their recording of a crime as an accident to reduce the recorded crime in the area).

We will be paying for PFI schemes many years into the future - again another little cover up scam designed to make us all feel good.

Then we have university fees and getting 50% of children into them, hence getting them off the unemployment list and into debt at a nice early age, devaluing their education whilst they are about it.

I could go on but it becomes depressing and I was a devoted leftie . . .

EffiePerine · 27/03/2008 16:43

I think it is, but it may be my age (was a student and optimistic when Labour came to power)

ska · 27/03/2008 19:48

hmm, i think lots of these negative things that you assume were put in place by labour are a tory inheritance. it does take quite a long time to turn around what you have been left with. i am sure student loans were introduced by tories weren't they?

i too hate many of the things done by blair and now brown but they are still better than what was done for the previous 19 (?) years by the tories when the country was torn apart by class divisions and unemployment. we are about to walk into a global recesssion and that is not solely the fault of labour. they seemed to do their best and didnt always know what they were getting into (nobody ever does)

blair was a good leader and a good prime minister and although he made many mistakes, dont we all?, he still i think did his best with what he had ie USA political situation. with hindsight nobody would make any mistakes but we all have havent we? btw i am not a member of labour party.

tallulah · 27/03/2008 21:11

I wanted to add to this yesterday but wasn't well.

SenoraPostrophe said that income tax was higher under the tories. I dispute that. The tax rate was higher but so were the tax allowances.

We got married in 1983 and DH's pay for that year was £3000. The married man's personal tax allowance that year was £2795, so although the tax rate was 30% most of his pay wasn't taxable.

A comparable job today would pay £15000. There is no married man's tax allowance- the tax free amount is £5225. Somebody on a low income is paying tax on a much larger proportion of their income.

NI in 1983 was 6.75%. Now it's 11%

Our council tax in 1997 was £300. This year it's over £1200. Our pay hasn't quadrupled in the same period.

Upwind · 28/03/2008 08:39

ska, they have had long enough to change anything they wanted to.

If anyone doubts that things are worse now, take the median income for your area and compare it to the price of a one bedroom flat. And if you believe nobody should have a right to own, consider the alternatives there are now. Renting with no security of tenure thanks to the "short assured tenancy" or years and years on a social housing list.

ska · 28/03/2008 10:10

they have had time to sort things out and i think they have. it is not like it was under the tories. i had negative equity only under the tories. house prices are high because people are being pushed out of the rental market because thatcher sold off lal the council housing and made it impossible for councils to replace with new council housing. house prices are absurd - my kids will never be able to buy - why oh why should it cost £350k to buy a three bed house? Give me the the labour party anyday.
oh yes and denationalisation of the railways - that is sooo much better now isnt it? and the utilities so that poor people are literally without gas, electric and water supplies. hmm the good old days

Peachy · 28/03/2008 11:16

Actually, house prices around here aren't that high compared with other places, there is some variation.

there are also things that the conservatives did that can't be undone- the damage done to South Wales communities by closure of the pits (and elsewhere obv), reading stats on drug use / illness / unemployment for these areas is a horrific exercise. I do feel it is improving for some areas- used to mentor in a school in the valleys- but it wuld take far more than a decade to rebuild that.

scaryteacher · 28/03/2008 12:28

I loathe NuLab with a passion, I have never and will never vote for them. They are hypocrites who promised change (and people fell for it) and have spent the last 11 years achieving bugger all, except making peoples' lives more difficult, increasingly regulated and much harder, with increased state intrusion into all aspects of our lives. They have changed things for changes' sake, as opposed to trying to keep what worked, and much did. They have set up enormously expensive and largely ineffective think tanks and quangos that are all talk and no action.

For those of you earlier on the thread who said Mrs T backed down over Community Charge - it was only changed because it is easier to charge a property (fixed and doesn't move) than a person who can slip under the radar. CC was an attempt to sort out local government finance with the principle of paying for the amount you use. Why should a lone person living in a property pay the same amount as 4 people living next door? Those in the larger household surely use more of the services provided and should therefore pay? You also have to remember that there had not been a general domestic uprating since 1974 I think, so whatever happened, people were going have to pay more.

It's Labour, not the Tories who have got rid of the 10% rate of tax, and therefore hit the poorest in society and the pensioners, and who have not increased the income tax thresholds in line with inflation. The Tories introduced independent taxation of married women, and it now looks as if the Treasury would like to rescind that....and who has been Chancellor since 1997 until recently? Not Nigel Lawson, Geoffrey Howe, Norman Lamont or John Major, but Gordon Brown. I had hopes of a state pension under the Tories, not under this lot...and as for private pensions...Mr Brown has destroyed the pension s in the UK, and has not had the decency to repay them or help those willingly whose schemes collapsed after his raid on their funds.

And what was wrong with fighting the Falklands anyway?

Upwind · 29/03/2008 11:15

Peachy - where are you? I might move
But seriously, where house prices are relatively low, that tends to because median wages are also low or work is simply in short supply.

scaryteacher, agree about Labour getting rid of the 10% tax rate and failing to raise thresholds.

WendyWeber · 29/03/2008 11:19

"The Tories introduced independent taxation of married women, and it now looks as if the Treasury would like to rescind that"

You what?

TwoIfBySea · 29/03/2008 14:55

Lets face it, at Westminster when Labour get kicked out finally will anyone notice the difference? They are all the same.

Peachy · 29/03/2008 22:53

I'm in S/ Wales and yes many wages are low but I moved here from Somerset where wages were equally low and house prices much higher so for me the difference is much clearer.

southeastastra · 29/03/2008 22:54

life is worse, the county is run by public school imbiciles

donnie · 30/03/2008 15:23

Has anyone mentioned Northern Ireland? We must not forget what Blair (and Clinton) achieved.

Thatcher even went so far as to force through legislation banning Sinn Fein mambers from having their voices broaddcast on tv/radio. So interviews were voiced over by actors - duh. You cannot hope to broker peace with an enemy without dialogue. And I feel that was the tenor of her entire reign - combative and hostile.

Someone made the point earlier that the Falklands military operation was a cut and dry case - I would say only if you see Britain as a deserving colonialist power. Anyway, a whole new kettle of fish there....

Poohbah · 30/03/2008 15:28

I think all parties have to respond to events around them. Margaret Thatcher did need to harsh decisions to make the economy more efficient. The french didn't and whilst we enjoyed boom years they have had 10% unemployment for the last 10 years and Sarkosey is having to take a Thatcherite stance now.

Poohbah · 30/03/2008 15:35

Oh and the Falkland Islanders wanted to remain British and that's why we went to war.

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