Arse: according to Ken LIvingstone my car is so unGreen I'll have to pay £25 congestion charge

[TheDullWitch]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6146442.stm

It's only a blardy Volvo estate, not a 4X4 and actually I'm Mrs Public Transport and must have only driven it into the congestion zone 3 times since charges started.(And we re getting rid of it anyway in two months.)

But that ruling will just lead to lots of richer families buying a second, runabout car which doesn t have to pay the charge. Which is hardly Green. Whilst lots of poorer families will never be able to use the one big family car they need.

But they do reduce congestion - needmorecoffee has posted a link to an article that proves it.

Everyone has had to pay more road tax on an emissions basis for the last few years. But of course if you have a company car, that doesn't affect you so you don't have to think about it. I'm glad something is making people think about the kind of car they drive.

Spice monster-- all these cars can now (in several months) come into the zone for free. How will that reduce congestion?

Why choose a school you can only get too by car?
Sushi, you could park a block away outside the zone, walk to the car and then drive.
I thought the new thing meant that gas guzzlers living within the zone didn't get the 90% exemption now? So that would stop them driving or make them geta less emission-y car?
If I was Mayor I would ban all cars except taxi's and disabled drivers from the zone but thats me. Ken is probably more reasonable than I would be
And I've have Park and Ride all around London. Doesn't seem to exist. I'd all re-nationalise the railways and bring down those outrageous fares so people who commute by train aren't penalised. Heck, if Europe can have cheap train fares then so can we. We're a pretty rich country.
And maybe counselling clinics to teach drivers their legs wont drop off if they use them and 2 miles is a reasonable distance to walk not an impossible marathon.
Vote for me!

Most people that drive those small cars (like me) won't use them any more frequently because they don't have to pay. I don't drive into the zone because I don't need to - I have a perfectly good public transport system thanks.

Some people probably will get another little car so they can drive into the zone for free rather than pay 25 quid. But they can't drive two cars at once. And they going to have to pay to keep two cars on the road, rather than one.

Well I must go now. We're off to the supermarket. On foot

I will vote for you 'nmc' - let me know when.
Totally agree that 2 miles isn't a marathon. I am astounded by the people at school who think 1 kilometre is too far for their little dears to walk. I was highly amused the other day when a parent looked at me with a 'double-take' as she was astounded that I had got to school (on foot) before her when she had driven past me earlier.

I agree that the new charge won't help with congestion (as it lets in all those other cars for free)-- so calling it a congestion charge is misleading. Assuming that a lot more cars with medium emissions will produce more pollution, then it won't help with that either.

sometimes I despiar of getting people out of cars. Our ancestors would laugh at what sissies we are. My nan went through the war with 3 kids, no car, walked everywhere with the children yet today people whine about having to walk across a car park!!
Cars have some uses - yetsrday I was glad we got one last week as dd is very very sick. Not sick enough (at that point) to call an ambulance but sick enough to go to A&E. There's no wheelchair accessible buses here on a Sunday which is outrageous so no way of getting into town. In the past we have called 30-40 taxi companies trying to find one that can take a wheelchair and failed.
So I was able to drive her to A&E. She's still in and is very ill but in a minute when I head to the hozzie I will catch a bus. It stops half a mile from me and goes to outside the hospital. Why clog up the roads to drive there and have nowhere to put half a ton of metal box (no parking at BCH except 3 disabled bays)

here
Click on the image of the car with the baloons. It represents what you don't see coming out of a car exhaust.

Nmc - Hope your dd is feeling better (sorry if that sounds trite as you say she is very sick). Admire your determination on this debate where you can look at the bigger picture whilst dealing with very immediate concerns close to home. Wish everyone could be as unselfish.

well, it is selfish in a way. One, I don't want my kids breathing fumes or getting killed by a car and two, climate chnage will mean a society with poorer food supplies if weather patterns change. A more precarious society tends not to look after its vunerable members. The strong get the food. DD will need 24 hour care for the rest of her life. I want her to grow up in a world where that is possible.
So I'm selfish.

You are not selfish - you are hoping for a world which will benefit plenty of others too.

Can I weigh in with health and safety issues here because there is indeed a choice to be made by everyone who aspires to be green and safe. Heavier cars are generally safer because they have more steel in them to absorb the energy of a crash. But, because they are heavier, they need bigger engines and burn more petrol per distance travelled. So, when you go car shopping remember that if you buy this cracker box smart car (for example) you will be well and truly green. But if you get in an accident with this mercedes over hear, you will die and they walk away from the accident. I personally am more interested in my and my children's safety. However, I am happy to get on the train -- if only it were as affordable and reliable as my car.

It would much better to encourage those who are able to travel by public transport to do so than it would to encourage them to endanger their lives in fuel efficient death traps.

Heavier cars are not safer...to those outside of them and to those they hit.

Call me selfish, but my priority is to those inside the car. This doesn't mean I buy the biggest and heaviest car on the road, but I don't buy the lightest and weakest either.

I drive an Astra, which is pretty middle ground.

I'm just saying, we should be getting pople on trains and busses, not in little cars.

big cars are more likely to kill those they hit. Where will it stop? Tanks?
We need a society conscience, not me me me me me.
As a pedestrian and cyclist I am petrified of big cars. And they pollute more. If everyone drove little cars then this 'tank mentality' would disappear.

eleusis - studies from the states showed more deaths in SUV's. Can't remember why. Possibly roll over.

and longer stopping disatnce cos they are heavier.

I suspect you are right that the higher death toll is due to the high center of gravity (roll over). Or perhaps it's the way SUV drivers tend to drive???

I am no fan of SUV's by the way. I just think we are obsessed with the whole SUV thing and are losing sight of our mission.

I've said it before and I'll say it tagain. Why do we not give the congestion charge to rail/tube/bus networks to upgrade the public transport, subsidise the ticket price (for everyone!)? And I mean the whole of the congestion charge minus the running costs of the scheme. Do we want people out of their crs or not?

I would be quite happy to get on the train to work. But it is too expensive and too unreliable. My car is cheaper.

unfortuaneyly all things have running costs. The rest, as far as I know, does got to buses. But the tube and trains are private so can't be subsidised by public money.
London bus tickets are very very cheap compared to what everyone else in the country pays. Here its £3.70 for an adult return to town - 5 miles and £2.80 for children. In London children are free.

Eleusis, according to NCAP (who do the safety ratings), your Astra scores 5 for adults, 4 for children and 1 for pedestrians on safety. Whereas my Peugeot 207 scores 5 for adults, 4 for children and 3 for pedestrians. So your car isn't safer for the occupants, just more dangerous for anyone you happen to collide with.

Where's that scoring system? Link, if you please.

Ah, found it on AA website. Interesting, but what speed is this crash test performed at?

And of course rating a car based on it's weight (or mass if you want to be precise) is of course a big generalisation. But, generally, it is true that greener cars are less safe.

Here is the link to the NCAP safety site. I don't know what speed the test is performed at but I do know that that is the standard which all cars are tested at so that's good enough for me. Obviously, feel free to disregard all the evidence and go with your gut feel but I'm more empirical in the way I view the world personally.

elusis - 'I've said it before and I'll say it tagain. Why do we not give the congestion charge to rail/tube/bus networks to upgrade the public transport, subsidise the ticket price (for everyone!)? And I mean the whole of the congestion charge minus the running costs of the scheme. Do we want people out of their crs or not?' - Again, the answer to this (I think) is that Ken doesn't have any power at all over the train and tube networks. He has some power over the bus network, and AFAIK that has improved a lot since he became Mayor.

But the people are getting mixed messages. Cars get taxed, trian prced go up, tax cars nmore, raise the train tickets again. If the goverment is serious about getting peopl out of their cars and onto trains then they need to make trains an attractive option. And that means affordable and reliable.