Inequality in housework: "Mothers are increasingly going out to work, fathers are doing the childcare - it looks like equality, but what about the chores?"

[morningpaper]

Article in this morning's Family Section

I was reading this article this morning about how, even in dual-income households, women are still expected to do most of the chores.

It was interesting and I'm quite sure is true, although the question that I didn't feel it addressed was 'why?' and how we can change this for our children.

I can HONESTLY say that I have never asked DP to 'put a load of washing on' or 'hoover up' - but we are both really anal about housework. I was actually reading in the conservatory this while he was packing the children's bags and supervising the children because he has taken them out for the day so I can get on with some work.

I don't know why his expectations are of housework-equality, except that he did act as 'carer' to his mother as a child a great deal, so the idea of a woman running around after him is not one he has learnt.

I must admit that my first husband was utterly useless and when I left him I left full instructions on how to use the washing machine and a pile of his favourite recipes . I don't know whether I would put up with this now - obviously I like this think not, but if I was married to an incompetent then maybe I would just get on with the bulk of the housework for an easy life.

So, what sets men's expectations that a woman will do the cleaning and housework? And how do we change it for our sons/daughters?

the breastfeeding part struck a chord with me more than the cleaning bit. mind you, I mostly stay at home atm, I often wonder what it would be like if I worked outside the house more - still the same amount of cleaning to do? = even more work. no thanks dh does his cleaning stuff, he likes hoovering and doing the dishes. the bathroom would be untouched and all the washing pink. but hey, I don't like hoovering or doing the dishes so we're a good team. the weekends tend to be family time and dh hangs out with the kids a lot. it does leave me a lot more housework to do on the monday morning tho

Oh dear - rats...poor you...have you got any form of pest control on the go or is it not working?

"what sets men's expectations that a woman will do the cleaning and housework"

SAHMs, who else?

Oooh Quattro....interesting point! My DH's mum was SAHM, as were all the women in his family and I think they have definitely set the standard...even down to ironing knickers...wtf?!

Well, I'll be returning to work full time in 4 weeks and DH will be doing full-time childcare. So I read this post with interest. If I'm honest, he's always been neater around the house than me, though when we both worked full time we had a nanny and a cleaner, so I've no idea how things will shake down in terms of domestic chores in the new regime. I think, because I have looked after DC's on ML whilst he worked full time, I will completely understand that the house will most likely look like a bomb has hit it when I get home...and I will be unlikely to be able to find any free work surface to make a cup of tea in our kitchen. Hopefully we will find some kind of blissful balance having both experienced either side of the fence, IYKWIM. Here's hoping..

Pussinjimmychoos: I have traps, I have poison, I have glue traps, I have an ultrasonic zapper... Have only had this (horrible, horrible, running rodents, can't sleep) thing going on for 4 days so it should be over fairly soon.
In general: I have an insanely houseproud mother and my dad always did/still does a fair bit round the house. DS dad (who doesn;t live with us) is a slob too but doesn't bitch at me about my slobbiness any more than anyone else does. And I have known many men more houseproud and more up for doing cleaning/chores than I am (but then the average 'arry ramp is probably more houseproud than me). Yet some men I have invited back to the former Z household have suggested I need some form of psychological help for the amount of mess I'm unbothered about.

I'm a WOHM, DH is a SAHD. The chores in our house are roughly divided as follows. DH does virtually all the washing, ironing, hoovering, DS's weekday meals (often stuff I've prepared and put in the freezer) and other day to day stuff during the day. He also spends lots and lots of interactive time with DS.

I get DS bathed and ready for bed every night, do most of the main food shopping and cooking, we usually share the washing/drying up, and we tend to split the less frequent cleaning tasks. We split childcare at the weekend with me taking more of a lead role and DH goes out on his own at least one of the days.

I think the division is perfectly fair and equal, although I do feel I should pull my weight more with the housework at times.

Thank you for posting Twinkle - nice to know there are others out there in same situation as DH and me, and sounds like you're making it work really well.

I think it helps that, similarly to you, my DH has generally been the neater one out of the pair of us. He used to be in the Navy so chores come pretty naturally to him. And he's brilliant with DS. My only regret is that I'm often quite tired and short-tempered in the evenings/weekends and I feel like there's so much to do. DS and I have a much better time when I'm off on leave.

Good luck - I'm sure you'll both make it work too!

Thank you!

Have only skimmed thread.

We're both WOTH ps and dh does more than I do in the house because he's here for longer each day than I am due to my stupidly long commute but even when I was a sahm he pulled his weight and we agreed that I was at home to look after child/ren, not be a housekeeper.

So, in our house it's equal or if not, then unequal in my favour. There are things that he tends to do and are acknowledged as his jobs (bins, fixing things, not because I can't but because I don't want to) and things that are acknowledged as my jobs (filing bills, sorting out credit cards) Dh is as capable of looking after the children as I am and of doing any household related thing as I am too. He drops and collects both children every day and does pretty much all the washing. We have a cleaner though and shop online (I mostly do this although he does going to the shop if we need something).

I don't know the answer to this: "What sets men's expectations that a woman will do the cleaning and housework?" and I wonder whether it's women? Although I am wary of blaming women and why should it be womens fault if men are crap?

I simply wouldn't be with someone who didn't pull their weight domestically as I just wouldn't be able to handle it, the inequality and sheer unfairness of it all would grate on me and eat away at me, I'm a big one for justice, me. But I have seen women on mn say "what do you suggest I do? I didn't know he was a lazy arse when I married him or he's turned into a lazy arse and won't change, do you really suggest I leave him over housework?" and I don;t know the answer. I think for me the principle would mean that yes, I would leave because of the lack of respect and care conveyed by someone who won't do something I think is important, i.e. SHARE the hard work that is involved in runnign a house and bringing up children. As for these men who are such hard work that they're effectively another child, i.e those who expect meals prepared, a spotless house, all their washinh and cleaning done, the childrne looked after etc while they sit on their arses etc, well, I wouldn't put up with one of them. If I wanted 3 children I'd have had 3 children, I don't expect my husband to be a burden, I expect a pretty much equal partnership. And that's what I've got. And if that makes me sound smug, sorry, I'm not, I'm just happy with the division of labour and with the way we recognise what we each need to (willingly) do to make the other happy.

And re what can we do to show our children something different, I think in my house we're doing the best we can and showing our children the following:

That both adults look after them sometimes (dh was a sahp for a bit, so was I)
That both adults do washing, cooking, cleaning
That work oth is feasible for both adults
That they are expected to pitch in and help where reasonable - i.e. ds has to help with various chores/tidying

So I think in our case our children see equality between dh and I displayed every day. I think it highly unlikely that ds will grow up thinking mummies do housework and daddies do working outside the home because that's not the case here.

And just skimmed that article too, the phrase "HELP OUT" when used to describe a man taking part in domestic/childcare activities makes my blood boil and just goes to show how bloody far we've got to go. it's not HELPING OUT it's bloody well life and doing stuff you need to do to keep yourself and your environment clean/kids alive etc. Helping out suggests it's a woman's job and men are doing women a favour when they engage in this tedious but essential WORK.

And my dh irons 5 shirts every Sunday night. It wouldn't occur to me to do it or to him to ask me.

Dh probably does as much of the hosuework, if nto more than me- certainly he thinks he does (!), although like many women i do the non-visible stuf like cleaning the loo, etc etc that wouldn't even our to him. he helps out generally on days off, and always does the putting away of laundry / washing up. Mr Nobody does the ironing.

The boys are expected to help: that doesn't necessarily mean they do or when they do that it's easy to get them doing it, but they know full well it's their responsibilty and they lose if they don't (Wii time, usually).

At the moment I am at Uni and Dh works full time nights, I am also due next month with ds4, and 2 of the otehrs have SN so just childcare is a lot here and I have extra therapies, complex diets etc. DH plans to pack his job in around September 2009 (he may have no choice, after he decided that the rumours began that company will be asset stripped by then and a bank has indeed bought it) and go to uni, he ahs a small business that he wants the skills to develop into a full time thing.

WWW - the 'help out' phrase really got me but sadly it is a reality for many women. I'm delighted there are couples like you and your DP around (I'm single) but most of my friends (who are all intelligent educated women) are now largely responsible for all household chores. And it isn't just the doing, it's the thinking as Gatrell points out. It's the lack of thinking which makes it into helping out.

But to be harsh, we as mothers are the ones who have to change the way we treat our sons. I despair as my sister (who complains about her DH who definitely falls into the helping-out camp) never asks her DS to do anything around the house. And when he does tidy away his toys, he gets heaped with praise. He's nearly 8. She has SAHM guilt I think as she has only just started working pretty much full-time.

I'm rambling rather but I do feel it's critical.

But Spicemonster, WHY are they responsible? Why do they put up with it?

(he's a dh not a dp btw! not that it's relevant )

And no, I don't think it is just MOTHERS who need to change how we treat our sons, it's FATHERS and men too who need to show our children that this stuff is the responsibility of both parents, that both are equally capable. Because laying this at the door of women is yet again blaming women and making it (yet another of!) their job to effect change.

don't you heap any child with praise for tidying up?

it's a positive parenting thing surely

I don't know WWW! It does my head in if I'm honest. There seems to be this feeling that if you're an SAHM you are responsible for all chores to do with the running of a home. I wonder if it's guilt from the SAHMs that they need to justify their lack of earning power or (possibly more scary) some harking back to the bad old days (when I was brought up) where working was terribly stressful and demanding and when you came home, you needed to put your feet up and couldn't possibly even put the kettle on.

Sorry about DP - I couldn't remember whether you'd written DH or DP and thought DP was more of a catch-all.

Must go change DS's nappy - haven't trained him yet to do it himself

(Sm, don't worry re dh thing, wasn't offended remotely!)

I tihnk it's ok to praise any child for doing nice things but if the praise for a boy doing some tidying is an extension of this:

"OH, isn't he GOOD? Bless him, he's a man and he's looking after his own children! Wow! Look at that! He's pushing them on a swing, how wonderful of him. You must feel very very lucky young lady to find a man like that"

kind of comment then I see what you mean.

Women often cause this by allowing it to take place and then kind of enjoying the fact they are "better" with the children and housework and cooking because they have so little else in their lives to be proud of and because they do down men when they do things differently from them or because they tolerate a man who won't do his 50% share.

I never had any of that. I was married for 19 years. Neither of us helped the other. I earned more and my ex husband was home slightly more than I was (as he had school holidays - although we had a daily nanny too). More importantly before we met he had his own home which he cleaned, a system for keeping his shirts washed and ironed etc etc. I would never have tolerate inequality in terms of chores at home and we sorted out workable systems - e.g. he dealt with all washing so I didn't think or consider that. I did school bags - what was needed for next day. He put dishwasher on before we left for work. I always did our tax returns etc etc. Also slightly helped that his mother was better at housework than mine so if either of us had slightly higher standards it was him but we both like the place tidy, we both don't sit around, we both work hard so we had a similar sort of ethos.

Marry men who earn less, work slightly longer hours than they do and ensure chores are fairly shared.

"Marry men who earn less, TICK
work slightly longer hours than they do TICK
and ensure chores are fairly shared. TICK"

I did all of this, the former two not deliberately, the latter most deliberately.

Take your point about it being the father's job too. Absolutely. But in many cases it's women who are running around after their sons. Of course children should be praised for helping around the house cappuccino. But it should be expected of them to contribute to the running of the home as they get older, not (as you say WWW) remarked upon as an utterly marvellous thing that they didn't throw a strop one time in ten when asked to tidy their room.