James Bulger's mother demands right to find freed killers

[suzywong]

as reported in the \link{http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/story_pages/news/news1.shtml\news of the world.

Should she have the right?

Discuss

Yes MTS, have read part of the book as well. She also wrote a very good piece about the Bulger case as well.

Such a beautiful quote beetroot.

It is a good quote, beetroot. So far away from what's happening with the Bulger case, the gap in perception seems so impossibly big. I wonder if James' mother has ever had contact with those parents in Norway who were able to forgive and let go, or if anyone close to her has suggested it.

But wasn't some paper (assume NOTW again) trying to expose where Mary Bell lived? This vigilante red-neck eye for an eye stuff makes me feel so depressed.

Yes - thirty years after the event. I had never even heard of her until they decided she was going to this generation's hate figure. When they were stopped by the courts (because of Mary Bell's child) from outing her, they decided to choose poor pathetic Maxine Carr instead.

Anyone who'll sell newspapers basically. Now that Myra Hindley's dead, whose going to keep the sales up for them? Maxine doesn't quite cut it as enough of a villain, so the search continues.

I read the article and found it utterly repulsive.
Frankly, I doubt very much that they have 'bodyguards' - in the article Denise merely said they had 'people around them' - I'm pretty sure the NOW made up the rest of the stuff about thinking they were bodyguards, just because they knew it would wind people up, add fuel to the fire etc. Never underestimate the cynicism of tabloid newspapers.
The boys were released 'early' because they would otherwise have had to be transferred to an adult prison at the age of 17, and those responsible for them believed that this was very likely to undo all the good work that had been done to rehabilitate them, and push them into a life of crime and chaos that could otherwise be avoided. Now isn't it better that they come out and live law-abiding lives than that they fall into lifelong criminal behaviour?
Moomin's post about her mother dying and asking when she was coming back, not only made me want to cry - how dreadful for you Moomin but I think answers the question as to how could a ten year old not fully realise the consequence of their actions - let along a not very clever, brutalised ten year old. As for 'when does a child become responsible for their actions'. Well the answer cannot be precise, but I think we can all agree that a ten year old is a child, surely? Otherwise why not make two year olds or five year olds stand trial?

Don't think I can better some of the posts on here already. Aloha, hercules, www, sophable et al- I'm right with you.

lockets - good point! OMG - to think they will father children

would they not have to divulge their true identities to any girlfriends? i had understood that they would as part of the terms of their parole. but of course could be wrong.

Message withdrawn

Just got in & skimmed this thread...that poor woman. & the NOW are a nasty exploitative bunch of ***s to be serving this up to titillate the nation, frankly.

Several people have expressed disbelief that 2 10 year old boys could not realise that they were committing an unbelievably evil act.

OK, how many of us are smokers/ex-smokers? I'm an educated 30 something woman with family working in the health industry, & I smoked until I got pregnant. I was perfectly capable of simultaneously a) realising that the fags were a nasty, smelly, expensive hobby that was liable to kill me before my time & b) continuing to chuff away!

On that basis it doesn't tbh surprise me in the least that 2 deeply disturbed young boys could know that they were killing poor little James, & yet not fully understand that this was a permanent, irreversible action.

I know the two things don't REMOTELY equate in magnitude - just trying to make the point that it's very, very easy for human understanding to work on more than one level. I don't think those lads had any real concept of what they were doing (ie. that they were committing an unimaginably awful act for which they would never be able to atone) - they'd had such dreadful upbringings, by all accounts, that their empathy & genuine understanding was incredibly limited.

I don't know what the answer is for these young men. Can't imagine them ever having much of a life - to wake up every day knowing that you are the object of utter horror & hatred must surely make it almost impossible for either of them to be 'reintegrated into society'...

Just come back to this thread and tried to read all the responses from this morning!

I am full of empathy and compassion otherwise I shouldnt be nursing. I have personally nursed mentally ill people who have murdered, which was challenging.

However.. just because one has been abused doesnt not make them an abuser. If they do abuse then it is just as wrong.. perhaps arguably even more so, as surely being victims themselves to such pain and hurt they wouldnt want to inflict it on others?

No, I dont think Jamies mother should 'hunt down' her baby's killers, but I for one do not think justice was served for the truely awful deeds they done. I dont know the answers and I do not have eloquent words to use. All I know is that I dont think I would EVER recover from something like that.

When I kiss my little boy goodnight I will just be thankful,

Child inmates do not have to transfer to adults units at 17/18. Instead they move to a Young Offenders prison, with people of the same age. It is only when a YO reaches 21 years (and 10 months) that they must go into an adult prison. There is a big difference between a YO and an adult prison regime.

James' killers "only" served 8yrs, but can you remember how long a time 8yrs seemed when you were 10? Most of their remembered lives and almost half their lives have been spent in a form of prison. Most adult killers do not experience that.

Most 10-18yr olds in this country live with people who love them. At the earlier end of that age range they will be tucked in at night by people who love them. At the older end they will be having all the trials and tribulations of adolescence surrounded by people who love them. There will be family christmases and birthday parties, family holidays, family evenings in front of the telly...most of us experience this in some way. Those boys haven't - and it sounds as if they may not have done before their punishment started. Isn't that punishment?

OK, so they had material perks. Yes, it's unfair that they got them when many don't. But there has to be some level of rehabilitation and humane concern as well as punishment.

Surely part of the point of their time in a young offenders' institute was to show them how right-minded people behave, not to harden them even further?

However much every parent on the planet may have wanted to rip those boys limb from limb, society has to be better than its criminals.

sometimes I wonder if people actually forget what these two boys actuall did. There were some details that were never released because they were too horrific. I understand people feel that perhaps they didnt know better or didnt understand the implications of what they were doing. They did things to that baby that make me feel physically sick to think of, and I'm sorry but there is a line in human nature - whether you are 10 or 70 - where you know that what you are doing to another human being is blatantly wrong. They more than crossed that line. 10 year old's these days are a hell of a lot cleverer than people give them credit for, and i dont believe for a second that for the whole time they were doing this they didnt understand what they were doing.

Oddly enough, Bloss, I was thinking last night about all the US soldiers in Mai Lai who were nicely brought up teenagers and early 20somethings from ordinary American families who, put in a scary, brutalising environment, influenced by a mob mentality, turned into unbelievably sadistic mass rapists and murderers. Or the Russian troops after WWII who literally crucified German women and raped every female over the age of nine. Or the child soldiers in Ruwanda, who took part in massacres. Human nature has its dark side, and yes, if you brutalise children and neglect them and deprive them of love and care it is likely bad things will happen. That's not an 'excuse' - it's a fact. Children brought up in 'care' are far, far more likely to go to prison or kill themselves than children brought up in normal families. Are those children more likely to be 'born evil' or is it more likely they have been damaged by what has happened to them in life? Are there 'evil' newborn babies?

I have skim read the latest postings and my final say is:
Agree with Peskykids and many others; NOW is the lowest of the low for, in my view, exploiting the grief and anger of a vulnerable and desperate woman. I wonder if their next move will be to launch a full campaign to "hunt down" the young men.
We mustn't confuse the issue of what is a just punishment/rehabilitation for Thompson and Venables with the issue of whether or not Mrs. F should be allowed to meet or find them both. Separate issues. It's not good enough to say "Well I understand or can at least empathise with her, x years isn't enough, she should see them".
80'smum: I don't know about the setup of the boys' trial, but it is a fundamental feature of an adult trial that the jury should NOT beforehand have any info on the defendant's background (I think there are a very few exceptions - W&R where are you?) A jury is supposed to hear the case on its own facts without being in any way prejudiced by background information. That would all come out later and be relevant when SENTENCING someone.
Imagine in more detail, all those who are "for" this issue, what would happen if the law were different and any victim of a crime, or in this case a relative of a victim of crime, were allowed to have contact details of the perpetrators?
Some sample scenarios
Imaginary person 1:I am hotheaded, aged 19 and on and off drugs which leads to me behaving erratically. Someone nicks my mum's purse, they are convicted (ha ha we all know how likely that is) and I am given their name and address so that I can "talk it through" with them? What might I do ??
2. Gang warfare set ups: tit for tat actions:
Do you remember the Nottingham woman and her husband killed during the summer because her son (undoubtedly vile) had been convicted of a murder) Who is the victim?

aloha - in all seriousness i think that yes, it is something they are born with, and that factors throughout their lives are the triggers - which is why i also believe that they can never be fully rehabilitated. You can't just wipe something from someone's brain. It's sad to say but murderers do it because they get something from it - whether its a buzz, a satisfaction - who knows, but I think that once it has been done once it's always there.

So it's just a coincidence that the children who are 'born evil' are disproportionately from the care system??? I don't understand. Do you really believe that?
You believe there are 'evil' newborns?
Overwhelmingly, murderers do NOT reoffend. It is extremely, extremely rare. Generally, they commit a crime under extreme and freakish circumstances and never do it again.
I think 10 year olds should never be tried as adults. I think that was shameful.

Also, as for their being the same as adults, I find it very hard to believe that any parent could think a ten year old is the same as an adult in terms of taking responsibility (or by any definition, tbh).

I agree that not all murderers re-offend. Not all murders are deliberate are they - in that case then yes, i do believe that a murderer could be rehabilitated. But for a child to have that amount of evil in them at that age? At 10 years old i certainly knew the difference between right and wrong and my childhood wasn't particularly wonderful. I had friends who were beaten and abused as children but it didnt stop them knowing right from wrong. I have worked in children's homes and seen some really really messed up children - but they knew right from wrong.
How do you explain the murderers that do reoffend? The serial killers? Do you not think that they have something in their heads that cannot be rehabilitated? something in them that needs to go out and keep doing it over and over?

I didnt mean that at 10 they have the same understanding of responsibilty as an adult - i just meant that every human being has a basic understanding of the difference between right and wrong

aloha - there are PLENTY of serial killers out there!

and yes, I do believe some people are born with something in them that isn't very nice - whether its genetic or chemical or what I don't know but I do believe that.

That is a good point Aloha that brutalities such as this do happen world wide.. and the brutality of war is awaful. But this wsa a baby with his mum shopping.. It wasnt a war situation. And I don not agree that the majority of those who committ crimes and committ suicide were abused as children.. Where are the statistics to back up that statement? Sorry to appear hot headed but working in mental health, hearing suicide and murder in the same sentance kind of riles me as most murderers are not suffering from a diagnosed mental illness. Yes some psychiatrically ill people do committ crimes including murder but the vast majority of convicted murderers are considered to be sane.. just look at the overcrowded prisons. Ian Huntley for one tried to plea insanity which was not held up, he thought he would get an easier ride if declared mentally unfit. Those who have murdered and have a mental illness tend to spend the remainder of their days in a secure hospital and do not go on to 'recover' as they are seen as having severe personality disorders.

I think what got me was what these children did for a prolonged period of time to Jamie. It really was dispicable. At the end of the day as much as we tear ourselves up about this it isnt going ot change that it happened but hopefully it wont happen again. But saying that it wasnt the first time it had happened either.. see this link www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/weird/kids2/index_1.html

And this one is particulary interested and the source is good being the british medical journal bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/322/7278/61

I for one am now just going to concentrate on my son, my family and all those i hold dear and count myself lucky to be so blessed. And going ot get on with my coursework.. another nightshift tonight.

xx