James Bulger's mother demands right to find freed killers

[suzywong]

as reported in the \link{http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/story_pages/news/news1.shtml\news of the world.

Should she have the right?

Discuss

I can't believe that grown ups believe in new born babies being born with evil in them. If that's the case, surely we should find out which newborn babies are evil and slaughter them, like Herod did, just to make sure that they won't go and inflict their evil on our society when they're older.

Is anyone seriously arguing such rubbish? Please reassure me you're not.

And if you're not prepared to slaughter them, what do you think should be done about the evil babies? And how do you know that yours isn't one of them? And is your name Rosemary?

I find it pretty scary to think that some people believe newborn babies are'born' evil. Caligula is right - should we 'hunt' down those evil babies? Jools - what is someone where to suggest that perhaps one of your babies had been born with something inside them that made them evil?

ahhh..awful typos I meant "what if someone were to sugggest that your baby had something evil in it" . It's just bizarre. What next - witch hunts?

I admit that yes I believe that certain people are born with it in them. How can you argue that no one in the world is born with something in their brain that causes them to need to do this - whether, as joolstoo says, it's genetic or chemical i dont know, but I'm thinking chemical. No, I dont say that we should go out and find all the 'evil' babies but I believe that when a person has committed such a crime they should be suitably cared for - not given a new life and sent out into society!
That's like saying that no babies are ever born with any imbalance or defects or whatever. So what about babies born with other mental problems - do you think we should go out and find those too??
I agree with Awen that killers are not neccessarily diagnosed with a mental illness. I think it is something in their genetic make up that makes them strive for that ultimate power trip or whatever it is that they get from it.

I hope that makes some kind of sense as to what I'm trying to say??!

and Awen I think Aloha was simply making the point that brutalised people often end up committing horrific acts. Those two children were brutalised in their upbringing and it's quite likely that that lead them to do what they did.

OK, I'm going to stop taking the piss and try and say something serious about evil babies. There is evidence that children who are deprived of sympathetic interaction (eye contact, cuddles, speaking, etc.) have brain damage, in the sense that the part of their brains which govern feeling, emotions etc. fail to make the neurological links they are supposed to - this is very badly explained, because I'm not a scientist and don't know the exact ins and outs (perhaps someone who is an expert can explain it better), I just do know that the evidence that an ill treated child becomes unable to express or comprehend emotions in the same way as a well treated child is very, very strong.

But that is after some months of being on Earth and being exposed to inadequate care. They are not born like that, they are made like that.

Just read that back and I'm not sure what I'm trying to say is very clear!! Ok - how about gay people, people with an addictive nature, people with a mental illness, do you not believe that all these people are born that way? Do you think that people are the way they are based solely on whats happened in their lives?
You wouldn't go and 'find' all the 'evil' babies just like you wouldn't go and search out ones who may grow up gay or with addiction or with a mental illness. It's only because it's such a terrible thing to have that you would think you couldnt have such a thing. But all these people are born with a different genetic/chemical make up

I also agree very much with that caligula - which doesnt contradict my 'born evil' point lol just that i also agree that the way babies are treated at a very young age will ultimately affect their menatal/emotional abilty. However - I still believe that at the age of 10 they would be able to distinguish right from wrong in something that extreme

Caligula - let's not over dramatise shall we? That was a really silly analogy 'Herod'!

I believe people are born with a predisposition to do evil things yes - just cos they were once babies doesn't make it an unworthy comment.

You know, Hitler was once someone's gorgeous little baby boy - as was Jeffrey Dhamer and others of their ilk. I don't think you can 'learn' to commit atrocious acts on your fellow man - I think its something inside - yes I do and I don't think its awful to say so.

Some people get a 'kick' out of bondage or deviant sexual acts - they have a predispostion to like these things (where the majority of us probably would not) - surely you are not saying that something in society has moulded them into liking these things.

thanks joolstoo - perfectly explained! I was starting to feel like i was in trouble there!

Hitler was very brutally parented.

Does anyone know of a child from a loving and stable home who grew up to kill?

Baby chimps actually die if they are not hugged by their mothers...I know we are not chimps but it does seem that nurture is vital to every aspect of how we grow up.

jools - I find that a frightening opinion and I ddin't think Caligula's anology was silly at all. I just can't beleive you think a baby could be born 'evil'.

so do you also not believe that babies can be born with addictive natures? or with a mental illnes? Why is it any different?

here

you're entitled to your opinion - as am I, I'm not going to get all arsey cos you disagree.

I believe children can be born with physical or mental disabilities but not some kind of nebulous, ill defined word 'evil'. (and no I don't think they are born with addictive personalities)

I don't see why suggesting the slaughter of new born babies is any sillier than suggesting that some of them are evil. Sorry, but I think that's a really bizarre suggestion in this day and age, I?m beginning to feel I?ve stumbled into some strange mediaeval chatroom where we?re all going to start arguing about how many angels we can fit on a pin head next! Did the enlightenment never happen?

And I ask again, if you genuinely believe that some babies are born with a propensity to evil, what do you think should be done about them? Surely we can?t just let them grow up with that propensity? Surely we should be trying to find them? And then what? Find the ?Evil Gene?? Breed it out? Isolate the evil babies from the rest of society? I?m sorry if this causes offence, but I cannot even take it seriously ? I?m PMSL at the very idea!

Hitler had a horrific childhood where he was regularly abused by his stepfather. And no, of course that doesn?t make the Blitz, the War and the Holocaust all right.

I just think that at this stage of human development, we simply don?t know enough about how human beings develop, what the balance between nature/ nurture is, what we?re going to discover next year, etc. etc. Because we don?t know yet, to fall back on a peasant idea of ?born evil, can?t do anything about it, just accept?, seems to me to be a nihilist, pessimistic approach to the world. And I'm an optimist.

But does it say anywhere there that this brain dysfunction is genetic & not due to poor development?

sorry, was referring to research cited by Jools Too...

just to clear something up everyone - I have never said 'babies are born evil' if you can show me where I did - I'll apologise. I think I said people are born with a predisposition to do certain things.

I have to agree with zephyrcat on this one. I remembered reading about this (back in 93) when I saw the thread yesterday and I have to say I woke up several times in the night very upset about it all over again. I couldn't even read the thread yesterday and have only read a bit today but all through the night I did keep thinking that there is something terribly and deeply fundamentally wrong with someone who can do something that horrible. And to be able to do it at such a young age is even more reprehensible. So, no, I don't think giving them new identities and releasing them is appropriate. If I were the mother...I can't even begin to imagine what I would want to do to these monsters.

You'll never find answers to these questions, the Nature and Nuture Debate has puzzled psychologists for years. As it happens i do know terrible children who were parented as well as any of us could be. I feel sorry for the mother who gets the blame.

I agree with fairyfly. They're are plenty of kids from 'well turned out families' middle class etc etc who turn to drugs, drink, crime and has nothing to do with upbringing whatsoever. No one has mentioned peer pressure which is far more likely to be responsible for some things than parental behaviour

I believe strongly in nuture, when it comes to "evil" babies. There's an excellent book called "Why They Kill", by Richard Rhodes, that explores this issue pretty thoroughly.

Essentially, he shows that people who kill have generally been desensitised to violence, through experiencing it themselves, having it inflicted on someone close to them, and then successfully using it themselves. It takes all these steps to produce a murderer. He uses many case studies, and argues his case quite convincingly.

I don't think everything is nurture, but it makes sense that being a killer would be environmental. There have been times and places in human history where "normal" behaviour (particularly for men) was horrifically violent. We're an adaptable species, we'll fit in wherever and whenever we're raised.