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I'd like to discuss the John Hogan case, but I dont want it to descend into a 'lynch' thread

431 replies

VVVQV · 21/01/2008 22:16

It aint gonna happen, is it?

OP posts:
KrippledKerryMum · 22/01/2008 19:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Kimi · 22/01/2008 19:11

I think we need to know WHY so we can all feel "safe" that we/ our nearest and dearest would not do such a thing.

I do think there but for the grace of god in a lot of things, but I also think some people are just evil.

The bloke who let his 7 year old on a quad bike =stupid but still needs to face a court and be punished, how ever much guilt/pain suffering

This chap did an evil thing (no one can say it was not an evil thing to do) and he should be punished for it, weather in a jail of secure mental hospital is for the courts to decided, but for what ever reason he killed his child and that is unforgivable

edam · 22/01/2008 19:34

good point, dittany.

bossybritches · 22/01/2008 19:49

Dittany I do not agree that with "hatred heaped on women who we judge to be hurting their children e.g. Britney."

Lots of people including me think she is a very sad,sick lady & if she is not sectioned soon for her own safety I truly believe we could have a Hogan type scenario on our hands.

I don't heap sympathy on child killers(Huntley et al) but I do think compassion for those who are mentally ill who then kill is a different attitude. I don't think having compassion for someones circumstances precludes agreeing with the need for punishment of some sort.

However I do agree with that those who plead the "I had a difficlt childhood" crap as mitigating circumstances are insulting those who have struggled to NOT let their past affect their fuuture negatively.

Vacua · 22/01/2008 20:06

I don't understand all this chuntering on about forgiveness, unforgivable, blah blah. As if it is anyone's place to forgive or not.

The very nature of psychotic mental ill health often means that the person concerned has lost touch with reality, are anosognosic - that is deprived of insight into their condition - if you know you are ill and you trot along to your GP and get your prescription for antidepressants or your referral to a psychiatrist for the same you are in a whole different category from this.

It's crass in the extreme to say 'so the man was ill, get help'. Nobody would ever need to be sectioned and medicated against their will if they had insight into their condition. A significant proportion of all people with schizophrenic or bipolar disorders will lack sufficient insight into their own conditions to recognise the signs of relapse, even once diagnosed and years into treatment. As far as I am aware this man hadn't been diagnosed with anything at the time of the tragedy.

How far, if at all, Hogan's mental state exculpates him from the charges he faces is for the court to decide and us to speculate upon, but can we try to keep within the spirit of the opening post?

Vacua · 22/01/2008 20:16

Also since when were hospitals a punishment? They are places for ill people to receive treatment, there are plenty of people in secure psychiatric hospitals who haven't committed a crime but are there for their own safety.

bossybritches · 22/01/2008 20:24

"....but can we try to keep within the spirit of the opening post? "

Quite Vacua - BTW when I wasn't inferring Hogan needed straight hopsital treatment (although that may be appropriate) but a secure unit like Broadmoor or Rampton.

dittany · 22/01/2008 20:35

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Peachy · 22/01/2008 20:43

Maybe they were kerry but my experience has been quite the reverse, I have begged for help on several occasions with ds1 and been refused, due to my own 'intelligence and capability'

And I also ahev worked in the mental health sector 9and indeed alied to SS) and seen first hand how people can be let down when they can't shout loud enough

bossybritches · 22/01/2008 20:48

No she is not violent-yet but she certainly is behaving erratically (?sp) & irrationally
-cutting her hair off in public,threatening to kill herself in hysterical phone calls, being admitted to hospital for getting so violent towards police & others she was nearly sectioned is hardly balanced poor girl. Ii feel she IS a danger certainly to herself & therefore to the well-being of her children.

In the same way John Hogan behaved irrationally by threatening to burn the house down.(but was not at that point violent towards his family according to the ex)

My point was at whatever stage of mental illness we should deal with them compassionately-punishment yes if appropriate but alongside treatment.

Nothing to do with women vs men just 2 sad sick individuals.

madamez · 22/01/2008 20:57

Certainly misogyny has a lot to do with it all - not thinking of this specific case so much but of cases where a demonstrably violent man has been allowed access/contact with his children because his wife has been judged as unreliable in some way (she left him but it's only her word against his, she dresses in a sexy way, she drinks, she talks to Other Men, she says he's violent but there's no record of her having to have medical treatment/no record of any threats he might have made and women are all irrational liars who make accusations against 'decent' men, etc, etc). There have been several awful cases where contact with a violent man has been enforced by law and the man has proceeded to kill or seriously injure his ex-partner and children. ANd I wonder if sometimes part of the 'reasoning' used by these horrible men is along the lines of 'she's a bitch and a bad woman therefore those children may not have come from my sperm so therefore it's OK for me to kill them...)

stripeybumpsmum · 22/01/2008 21:06

There are a few people in ivory towers tonight...

We see things not as they are but as we are.
People are posting views based on their experience, their morality, their understanding of the case from the press reports. We cannot possibly know everything, and frankly whilst people are entitled to their opinions, I think they have to concede they are based only on the information known to them. Investigations and Court cases are long and complex for a reason.

The only people who really knew what went on in that marriage were Hogan and his wife. The only person who knew what was going through his mind was Hogan.

People just don't seem to get that all elements of the crime must be proven. Not sure about Greek law, but in the UK, the elements to murder are: death of a human being, death within one year and one day of the injury, under the Queens Peace (ie not in war) and the intention to kill.

Pleading not guilty does not mean 'it wasn't me, I never did it' - it means he is saying he did not have the capacity at the time for the intention to kill. Since the only person who knows that is Hogan, the job of the court is to discover every relevant bit of evidence, however tenuous. That eveidence does not excuse or condone what he did - it all builds a picture to try to understand why he did what he did and what he felt at the time.

bossybritches · 22/01/2008 21:09

Well done stripey-got it in a nutshell & saved my cold befuddled brain. Thanks!!

VVVQV · 22/01/2008 21:27

Agree vacua, and bossybritches.

OP posts:
tiredemma · 22/01/2008 21:30

Fantastic post Vacua.

Vacua · 22/01/2008 21:43

The ignorance surrounding mental ill health on this thread has really bothered me, even though we don't know to what extent (if any) it played a part in Hogan's actions.

There was mention earlier in the thread of Hogan using his brothers' suicides as an 'excuse' when really they are significant as being strongly suggestive of an hereditary illness. I think it's very likely that Hogan was and is ill, it remains to be seen of course, but part and parcel of some illnesses (such as mania, which can be dysphoric or present alongside depression in a mixed episode) is lack of impulse control. He may have had a thought along the lines some of the less um compassionate posters have suggested but already have acted upon it before the thought even registered in his mind. If that was the case, is he as responsible for his actions as someone who plans and prepares to kill?

Men especially find it hard to ask for help even when they do recognise they are becoming unwell, and it's hardly surprising given some of the attitudes to them. We are bombarded all the time with advice about our physical health, anti-obesity campaigns, 5 a day of fruit and veg, safe sex, don't use a mobile telephone at night but who would know what the prodomal (warnings of impending episode) symptoms of schizophrenia, for example, would look or feel like for the first time? I'd really really really like to see some sort of preventative mental health work taking place, in young adults at least, awareness of the early signs of mental illness would lead to earlier intervention which in turn leads to a better prognosis for everyone.

And please remember how incredibly rare it is for mentally ill people to kill or hurt others, they are overwhelmingly more at risk from themselves and others.

Vacua · 22/01/2008 21:44

aw thanks

I was getting a bit pompous I thought

tiredemma · 22/01/2008 21:47

not pompous no, you obviously have a lot of knowledge and compassion for MH issues.

Vacua · 22/01/2008 21:52

it's my 'thing' I think, especially suicide - don't know why, only lost 1 close friend to it but it has always bothered me (that the media are only interested in it when someone who isn't mentally ill is killed or injured too) before that even happened. I feel really really strongly about the whole thing.

I dropped an R by the way - prodomal should be prodromal

but I won't top myself over it

alfiesbabe · 22/01/2008 22:00

Excellent post stripey

alfiesbabe · 22/01/2008 22:00

Excellent post stripey

madamez · 22/01/2008 22:05

Vacua: very good posts. It's my understanding (which admittedly may be wrong) that while the sort of acute psychotic episodes that do lead someone into harming other people are not common, they can come on quite fast ie there may be signs that the person is not mentally very well but few signs that the problem is going to escalate to the point where the person is a serious danger until it happens.
I'm not saying that everyone who exhibits signs of mental ill health should be locked up, quite the reverse, more saying that it's not fair to blame either the very mentally ill person or those close to him/her for not spotting the danger signs in time given that most mental illnesses do not lead to a person becoming violent and dangerous to others.

Vacua · 22/01/2008 22:12

yes totally - that pre-illness period can be just a matter of days or it can be several months

I think everyone who has a close relative with a severe illness of this kind (and is therefore slightly more vulnerable to psychosis than most) should be given an opportunity to learn everything that is known about early warning signs so they can get help sooner. They can be really subtle and not feel psychological or be apparent to loved ones though, like a sensitivity to certain smells or tastes or a change in sleep or appetite.

bossybritches · 22/01/2008 22:31

Yes Vacua I totatlly agree. I have a brother with severe MH issues since age 15 (he is now 45) which is why I feel so strongly about it. You cannot underestimate the strain it puts on a family.

My brother is one of the loveliest ,kindest sweetest men most of the time but he has episodes when he is a danger to himself (as yet not ever to others but who knows what might happen one day) & over the years we & he have learnt to recognise the warning signs but it would have helped had we had that knowledge or at least some guidance years ago.

I have been thinking a lot about how I would react if Hogan were MY brother. I would hope I could still talk with & cuddle my SIL & grieve with her but also cuddle & grieve with my brother for many reasons. I feel for his mother & admire her for her support of him-he is still her boy, he'd still be my brother.

Vacua · 22/01/2008 22:42

Maybe you have to have been there, just like you with your brother my sister will always be my sister. A really terrible thing happened when she was delusional and my niece was seriously injured - the saddest thing is that she knew something was wrong and pleaded not to be left alone with her baby but everyone said 'no no, all mums feel that way, you're doing fine'.