I'd like to discuss the John Hogan case, but I dont want it to descend into a 'lynch' thread

[VVVQV]

It aint gonna happen, is it?

Bossybritches - yes, i agree to a certain extent - the man in crete seemed to work up to it quickly and do it on the spur of the moment - though he had clearly considered fatal revenge - with his threats to burn down the house etc.

Can't say that I didnt have unconventional thoughts when I had PND.

I didn't actually know I had it either. I just felt rubbish, useless, lonely, unwanted, unloved, unsuccessful, a rubbish mother who couldnt stop her son from crying day and night.

I dont think you should compare your own experiences of mental illness and use it as a standard to measure others against. Life, and mental illness just isnt like that.

I mean - I think John Hogan could well have been consumed with rage, possesiveness and vengeance in the same way as the man my colleague knew, and that that mixture is enough for some people to become able to do something as terrible as kill thier child, having brooded furiously on it, or when the moment arose.

But I don't know...I'm not John Hogan or his psychiatrist.

It's quite contradictory, isnt it Blu? The situation as a whole.

I'm wondering if he felt that her re-packing of the suitcases was another blow to his 'crapness'/ego, and felt she was doing it to make sure they could go their separate ways when they got home. I say that as one not fond of speculation, usually........

Also remembering that mental ill health encompasses things such as personality disorder - a far more complex and less understood area of mental dysfunction. Interesting too because PD says a lot about social constructs and how this informs our sense of what is normal/abnormal; wrong/right. Could one argue that mental ill health only exists as a deviation from a series of such constructs by which the majority of us live our lives but which by no means abnormalises the behaviour of the deviant, thus rendering murder by the [considered] mentally unstable, more of a straying from an accepted path as opposed to an act of sanity or insanity?

That might not make sense ss I am feeling rushed by my pitta bread which have just popped fom the toaster

i have heard reports that he was violent towards his wife before. don't know how reliable though.

Readin what the little girl remembers makes me feel sick. An actual physical sickness in my stomach and chest.

The dynamic of 'I'll kill myself and then she'll be sorry' is very common though - as a thought. I used to do it a lot as a child - when sent to room I several times experimented with sitting on the windowsill - even Horrid henry is constantoly imagining the misery he will inflict by killing himself. But we grow up and learn perspective and sense - and the vst majority of us nver actually do it anyway, even as furious children. I can sort of imagine that a parent who has not grow up, and harbours this level of vengeance might think they couldn't bear to leave their children fatherless - so it would be (in the warped mind) kinder to take them with you.

KM I'm not an expert either and tbh I often take a fart too permissive approach in certain situations but I always think to myself, we were all children once and shaped by our childhoods - good or bad - and so therefore how accountable can any of us ultimately be for our adult behaviour? What I mean is, of course we are responsible, but how much control do we have about how responsible we feel or our reactions to what others consider normal?

sodding t key again

ds

What is there to learn though from making comparisons with 10th hand slebsville allegations???

Ok KM, this is where some of my study is of use in the argument; nature and nurture coexist it seems and so you and I could have the same shitty childhood as each other but I will become the murderer because of my personal genetic make up and my personal life experiences which exist outside of and beyond the family environment. Here we are talking predisposition.

I'm with Kerrymum tbh
My sister and I grew up with a mother who had and still dose mental health issues.
We have both had hard times (sis more then me) but at no point have I ever jumped out of a window with my children (I have ocd, grew up in a dysfunctional family and left my DH 18 months ago, have a SN child and could go on).

I think there IS more to this then we know, I feel sorry for everyone involved, but this man KILLED his child and MUST be punished, mad, sane whatever.

Absolutely agree.

there was a case recently in Belgium when a women killed her two year old child and hid the body. It was discovered that she had severe postnatal depression, and because of this, she wasn't charged with murder. That is a very understanding society.

Clearly kerry ahs never tried to access support from SS! It's simply NOT that easy.

Anyway why does looking for a reason and explaining it have to equate with absolving responsibility or advocating non-punishment? exlanations and understanding matter: they might help prevent a repeat of this in the future.

I can't imagine anyone much arguing he doesn't deserve a very long sentence, whether it is served in a mental health institution or a prison is important only to his care team; unless of course one tends to holiday in broadmoor and thinks it is a fun place to be?