I'd like to discuss the John Hogan case, but I dont want it to descend into a 'lynch' thread

[VVVQV]

It aint gonna happen, is it?

no

elliot - really thoughtful post. I agree that it's a shame this thread has become hijacked by people who want to make this a gender issue and bang on about mysogyny, when clearly the issue is far more complex. It is NOT just men who kill and hurt their children. A couple of posts early in the thread mentioned the woman who pushed her children in front of a train in their buggy and then followed, and the woman who hurled herself and her daughter off a bridge. In each case, there is a serious and complex story behind the headlines - and tbh NONE of us know the details of those stories because we DON'T know the people concerned. However, what is clear, is that John Hogan was NOT a bad father (his ex wife admits that). At some point she must have loved him and chosen to marry and have children with him. Obviously things were seriously wrong with their marriage by the time of the holiday, but we don't know what happened, who did what or how the two of them may have hurt eachother.
I am NOT trying to blame either party, or absolve either party. I think it's way too complicated for that.

i read that article by germaine greer and thought it was spot on.

I too thought the article by Germaine Greer was spot on.

When this story initially broke I felt some sympathy for John Hogan but having followed the reports over the last few days that sympathy has completely disappeared.

His reaction shows that he has absolutely no comprehension of what he has done or the pain he has inflicted.

That anyone - especially a loving mother, as as have no doubt everyone on this thread is - can glibly criticse Natasha Hogan after the hideous loss she experienced and which will no doubt haunt her forever makes me LIVID. Try and comprehend for a moment, if you can, what she must be going through because I simply can't bear to imagine it.

My sympathy rests with his ex wife, his daughter, and the little boy who will never see his seventh birthday.

Not the killer. Because, I'm afraid, that's what he is.

Sorry, that should be 'As I have no doubt..' in the second paragraph.

I don't want to get off the subject but, Madamez, did you read about the man who put his wife's cat in the washing machine on a boil wash just to spite her? Of course the poor cat died. I simply cannot understand the logic behind killing an innocent in order to hurt the feelings of another. Bonkers. Worse than bonkers, actually...

Neither can I dittany, it's beyod comprehension.

Can he really not understand why his wife does not want to subject his daughter to the trauma of seeing him? She is doing it to hurt him of course. Why else would she be doing it?

That should tell you something of his mindset.

I really think, if he had any comprehension of what he had done, he would be unable to live with himself.

Alfiesbabe I think you have summed it up so well & far better than I have done.

Dittany NO I am not deliberately misintepreting you & if you feel I have then I apologise.

I am merely TRYING to get you & others to see there is no black & white in this case merely a sad sad sad series of events & as we were not in court we DON'T know the fulll story.

I am also sad at peoples total lack of understanding of & compassion for mental health issues. When he said "he didn't do it" he wasn't denying he HAD done it but that the John Hogan previously loving dad & husband would never have done it & therefore he couldn't plead guilty as he was in an unblanced state of mind.

I'm sure like me Elliot is VERY bothered ny the image of the poor children being so horrifically injured -who would not be & their mother has gone & is is going through the most unimaginable hell.

But the court heard the evidence not us & there are many strands to this case we may never know about if indeed anyone does.

"I am also sad at peoples total lack of understanding of & compassion for mental health issues. "

I do have some understanding of it though, bossybritches albeit as a patient in a secure psychiatric unit. I was suffering from a form of psychosis.

I have tremendous compassion for people who suffer from mental health problems.

It's true we don't know the whole story. I appreciate that. But I find his reaction very disturbing and unpleasant and have very little sympathy for him at all. There it is.

imagine for one moment what it must be like to be the daughter involved in all this. Until that moment when her father jumped she probably had a loving involved relationship with her Ftaher, her Mother and her brother, In ine fell swoop she's lost her brother and her Father because she's not allowed to see him any more - goodness alone knows what she's been told. Oh and a month or so after this family holiday mummy's remarried- come on!!!
I'm not forone minute saying he's not guilty, he's as gulity as sin and he is, as soemone said a killer, but I think the wife must be culpbale to some extent - how could she not be? No-one has addressed the fact that she got remarried a month after all this ...? and in her words she wants to move on, there's another expression that makes me want to blinking scream - move on from the fact that your husband jumped off a balcony holding your two children ,

sorry hit the post button before I read it ogver and corrected typos

elliot, how on earth do you expect anyone to 'address the fact she remarried'? We don't know her but it doesn't take much imagination to think that she was going through hell and might just have felt tempted to reach out for some love and security.

Your attempt to blame one of the victims for this tragedy just shows how deep-rooted misogyny is in this country. And Greece, too, it would appear. 'She made me do it' is the cry of the wife-beater down the ages. Shocking that it still works.

Who gives a damn if she remarried? Really?

And I don't think its unreasonable to keep her away from her father considering her tried to kill her.

Children look to their parents to protect and love them. John Hogan betrayed that in the cruellest way possible.

"I think the wife must be culpbale to some extent - how could she not be?"

If I told you my honest and immediate reaction to that statement elliott, I'd get banned. So I won't. How can you say such a thing?

all I'm trying to say is they're both responsible for the situation.That doesn't make me a mysoginist -I'm a woman.

Why does it have to be black and white? and yes, it is importantthat she remarried in terms of the daughter's perspective and understanding of events is it not?

John Hogan is guilty of many terrible things but the simple truth is he wasn't of sound mind- no-one of sound mind jumps off a balcony with his children, especially one who has been shown to be a loving father. I think we should all be able to see the bigger picture - he wasn't of sound mind and she misjudged that in terms of what was said between them- she's not responsible for his actions but she is resposnsible for hers and surely blame can be shared here?

yes she was in need of love and affection and support in the aftermath, of course she was, but moving in with a man in such a short space of time after such traumatic events doesn't mean she's excatly stable herself and who would be? I'm simply saying they are both to blame, that's all, not in a point the finger way, simply a factual one. There are no winners in this one it's a tragedy in the true sense of the word but she is far from blameless

How does the fact that what Mrs Hogan did after the event, reflect on what Mr Hogan did?
Not at all.
Personally I would not in a million years expect a woman to go through what she went through alone, why should she not have needed and chosen someone to lean on and heal with.
FFS

how can one possibly sugestthat she isto share the blame becuase she misjudged her husband and his loonatic moment.

i have had some fucking hum dingers of rows wit y dh a no point i i ever suspect my children of being in danger

are you suggestingthat she must have suspected her children be in danger and therefore calm the situation down? becuase only in that situation could she possibly tenuously be held responsibly in te smallestway

but i the aformentioned comment about him being shown to be a good ather is true - then why would she?

it doesnt add up

Jano if that is your situation then I accept your point of view, I accept everyones point of view, but it is worrying that people can be so black & white when that POV is taken from ill informed media reports & accounts (allegedly) from traumatised participants of this tragedy.

Interesting that Natasha's expression "he died for nothing" is taken as a comment in the height of grief. John's comment about her "stopping him seeing his daughter" is leapt on as inconceivable that he should want his daughter FORCED to see him!! Neither comment I suspect was made as it reads & probably totally out of context but they make good sound-bites & the media knows they will stir up opinions such as on this thread!

Custardo i don't eblieve for one minute that she just happened to fling into the conversation that she was leaving and it was a bolt from the blue-I think reading about it, it was a marriage in trouble, hasn't the ex-wife sold a story saying that natalie Hogan and her husband had been having an affair for some time before this holiday? so I think the marriage was vcertainly under strain and he was also dealing with the suicides of his brothers so I'm simply saying a man under strain who reached breaking point, who flipped, lost his mind, all these expressions which are based in truth, people do flip. and I'm just saying that she must have known he was on the edge, albiet that I'm sure she wouldn't have known what he was about to do, of course she didn't but we've all beeen guilty of just turning the knife a bit more than we should when we're in an argument, I know I certainly have and yes that doesn't mean he should have done what he did, but his breaking point, given his family's history was different from other people's.
What I'm saying about the fact that she remarried very quickly is simply that that is a somewhat odd reaction to such an event- comfort, support all those things, yes, but i know, let's get married????

Hang on I don't think anyone was saying that dittany-can't you accept that some of us aren't so sure on either side of the fence?

And why does it have to be one or the other?

I don't hate anyone Man or Woman. I just think that this thread shows how people can make judgements based on media reports on a VERY sensitive situation that was dealt with in a court that none of us attended so we can't judge.

We don't know all the facts.

"what is clear, is that John Hogan was NOT a bad father"

Fuck me, I've obviously got impossibly high standards then.

I've got it all wrong. Natasha Hogan was a terrible mother because she didn't realise that John Hogan's children meant so little to him, that he was prepared to kill them. But was a good father.

What a topsy turvy world we live in, to be sure. Even more topsy turvy than I'd previously suspected.

We know that he said he feels no guilt. Even if I had a terrible moment of madness and killed my DS I would never, ever stop feeling guilty.

Would you?