I'd like to discuss the John Hogan case, but I dont want it to descend into a 'lynch' thread

[VVVQV]

It aint gonna happen, is it?

Didn't read all the messages, but the one thing that keeps coming to my mind regarding this case is my domestic violence training, not necessarily physical violence just relationships where someone is v. manipulative and controling. Basically it came down to the fact that when someone is in such a relationship, the person that is in control can start feeling the control slip away. This is often when tragedies happen: i.e. if I can't have the children then neither can you and I'll make you feel sorry for trying to leave me by making you feel guilty about me committing suicide on top of it.
I'm not saying that this is the case here. I'm sure that it is very likely that John Hogan might have been suffering with mental health problems, especially with his family history, however this DV training little voice keeps nagging at the back of my head with doubts...

Kerrymum, I never said it was her fault, just that she will forever have the guilt of whatever was going on (be it her having an affair going to leave or not) she is their mother and she will feel she did not do enough to protect them.
I agree there IS NO PROVOCATION in the world the would make someone do what he did.
HE did it He should have been punished, HE killed one child and tried to kill the other, HE robbed a little boy of his life.

That may well be BC & a good point- a lot of DV is comitted by men with MH problems.No excuse butit might have been a factor.

I don't think ANYONE is saying that it is the wife's fault,the same as we are BOT saying he is innocent.I don't think ANYONE has said there is ever an issue of the little girl being forced to see her Dad, he was just commenting that it was punishment itself that he wouldn't ever see her again as well as living with the knowledge of what he did.

Just to let you all know that the trial for this case has come to the conclusion of "not guilty"

I've not followed this thread since I logged off last night.

I could respond to some of the comments, but you know I'm really not sure there is any point trying to express my opinion, correct misuderstandings of other's posts or correct misunderstandings of the legal issues. Clearly others tried and failed last night.

It worries me some of you may get called for jury duty.

Vacua - it is mens rea

That's me done.

"It worries me some of you may get called for jury duty"

Stripey me too.....

Night all.

Crikey.
According to BBC news 'he hopes one day to be a father again to his daughter Mia'.

Deeply deluded.

quite, Blu. Hoping to be a father to her again suggests he has a long, long way to go before he appreciates truly what he did. And takes some responsibility for it.

Stripey, I am liking you very much

"I will always love her no matter how much pain she inflicts on me, stopping me seeing her children".

That really is chilling. It is a bizarre formulation, as if she is being somehow very unreasonable in stopping him seeing "her" children. It does sound like he still hasn't taken responsiblity for his actions.

As for the psychiatrist being the most reliable source of opinion, psychiatrists are not immune to the usual racism, sexism, whatever-ism you'd like to mention. They are part of society and are influenced by prevailing notions just as much as anyone else. And let's face it, the prevailing notion is still, that women can drive men to violence. Or drive them mad.

I have no idea if this man was out of his mind or not. I just wonder whether he will get real treatment where he can actually come out understanding why it is, that it is reasonable to deny him contact with the daughter whom he did not succeed in killing. Much less "be a father to her again". Any treatment which doesn't enable him to understand that, will have failed imo.

Oh Dear

I feel as sad for the family as ever.

Am I right in understanding he will spend 3 years in a Greek psychiatric unit? (Only caught a bit of this on the radio this morning, DD1 chatting too much!)

No, he is spending an initial term of 3 yeras in a Greek Psychiatric unit (but I would imagine there will be applications for him to be treated here).

Psychiatric care is different to prison- generally (IIRC) you get assessed as to fitness at the end, I would imagine he is unlikely to leave the unit after 3 years.

I'm pretty sure strong applications would be made for transfer here. I believe this should happen... it must be very very difficult assessing someone when they do not share your first language/culture etc.

I think the judges and the jurors (3 or 4 of each?) did the right thing. Thanks stripey , the other phrase I was fumbling about for was: 'actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea'. He may well have been motivated by malice, she may well have goaded him - only they know. I don't think the outcome could have been improved in any way though.

The trouble with thinking 'if someone wants to kill themselves they will get it right first time' is that being suicidal, by its very nature, means that one is not thinking at one's best and clearest. If he lacked the capacity to plan and carry out the murder of his children it's hardly surprising he hasn't succeeded in committing suicide either is it? A gloomy prediction but I would not expect him to survive to be released.

Am sure he's on suicide watch now (bet he's not left alone atm)

He will be at even greater risk of suicide if his mental state does improve... ie if he gains insight into what has happened

That's what is said about depression isn't it, when someone's mood picks up they are more likely to commit suicide than they were at their most ill - I suppose they can think it through more clearly, have the energy to put into action what they've been dwelling on for weeks or months.

Feels a bit icky to be speculating on Hogan's chances of completing the act, but it does seem highly probable if not inevitable.

Vacua, you're right it isn't nice speculating in this way... but I do feel it is in context, IYSWIM?

Definitely higher risk once energy/motivation etc increases.

I think, NNB, the penny IS dropping-whether he'll ever be in a fit state to cope with his actions is another matter.

As you say so SO SO SO sad for all the family,the poor mother was clearly hoping for a long jail sentence, quite how that would help her cope with it, over the current verdict I don't know but she probably had to focus on something to get her through. I hope this judgement hasn't started off all sorts of new anguish for her but I fear it might.

Vacua that's right about suicide being more likely as you emerge from the bottom f the abyss- bascially you're still ill enough you can't look forwards or be optimistic, and all you can see is that abyss, but you have the energy as you say to do something about it.

IME (brief stint in psychiatric care when nursing) the otehr high risk time is in extreme emotional turbulence- eg loss / bereavement, or anger.

I can't see how that man is going to ever be a non-suicide risk, tbh.

I agree Peachy.

I haven't read every word of this thread. I noticed when John Hogan was being led away, some sh*thead of a reporter had obviously asked him if he was "pleased" with the verdict. He can be heard shouting "How can I be pleased when my son is dead?" a number of times. FWIW, that strikes me as indicative of him having insight into what he has done now (albeit he has been found not to have had any on the night it happened).

I agree with those who are saying that knowing what happened between the couple on that night was vital in understanding what he did. If Natasha Hogan was having an affair or was "goading" him, it sheds light on what he did. It doesn't make her responsible or culpable. She'd have had to have known, or suspected, that he might do what he did before she could be held responsible for what happened.

I think Natasha Hogan's upset over the verdict is understandable. However, she is, by definition, not an objective or disinterested party. It is not for those with a particular bias to make these decisions and I think her reaction probably demonstrates why that is.