I'd like to discuss the John Hogan case, but I dont want it to descend into a 'lynch' thread

[VVVQV]

It aint gonna happen, is it?

I am deeeply saddened that both the judge and court psychiatrist have implied that Mrs Hogan was in some way to blame for what happened. I fail to see how she can be held responsible for someone else (sane or otherwise) throwing her children off a balcony.
Disturbing subtext that there are situations where men are justified in being violent towards their partners or children.

Who has said she knew what she was doing would militate his actions?

If she did know that goading him would make him throw himself and his children off of a balcony, then yes, she is complicit.

But she didnt know. I'm not sure what your point is really?

It is unquestionnable that the circumstances leading up to his actions aggravated what can only be assumed to be a predisposition to such violent acts. But, circumstances, by the very definition, don't automatically mean someone is to blame for being a modifying factor. If they hadnt been having marriage difficulties, and had not been rowing on that day, it is possible, if not very likely, that he wouldnt have jumped off of the balcony. But the simple fact is, in his warped sense of logic, his actions(whether sentient or not) were based on the circumstances and inextricably linked to everything that had been happening that day, and the days, weeks and possibly months leading up to. I dont know why this confuses you kerry.

dittany there's a fair chance he will be transferred back here and they would view it differently i think- danger to toehrs is automatic sectioning regardles of conviction or not. Indded, even on release he could well be assessed ona return to the UK and re-sectioned if a danger.

I suspect that he'd be more likely sectioned because he is a danger to himself.

I don't beelieve he will ever get out. I think he will take the first chance he has to kill himslef..how can he live with this

It depends on what conclusions the psychiatric team who are now responsible for him reach.

I think it is very likely he will be transferred to the UK (to a high security psych unit, probably). He will be undergoing a long period of assessment. I guess a 'diagnosis' will be made and subsequent treatment options decided upon that (or not, if found to be not suffering from a mental illness)

I do feel that rightly or wrongly Natasha Hogan has had her hopes pinned on him being put away for a long time in jail as achieving some sort of "closure" for her in her grief.I can understand that.

She is quoted as saying that her son "died for nothing" which I find very sad. Jailing his dad won't bring the little boy back neither will commiting Hogan to a psych unit but the latter may be a slim chance of giving him some sort of sanity for the future.

It is a shame she has pinned her hopes on this outcome (been encouraged to maybe?) as she has remarried & has a chance to move on never forgetting these terrible events obviously but learning to live with them & re-build her life in a different way.

This trial has brought back afresh many horrible memories of that time-which I'm sure are still on her mind but trawling through them piece by piece must be torture anew.

KKM, please read what I actually wrote. I said, to be culpable in any way she would have to have known that what she was saying would prompt him to do what he did, not that she did know it. I thought that I had made it clear that I do not believe that she knew any such thing and, thus, is not culpable.

The quote about the son having died 'for nothing' is extremely sad I agree. It sort of implies that if the father had been convicted and sentenced to a long term in prison, then somehow that would have meant he hadn't died for nothing. Which I think is ludicrous. The child's death is dreadful and pointless - we all knew that before the verdict.

P.S. MsHighwater - your post was very good

In the circumstances she probably wasn't in a very clear frame of mind when she said that.

Don't normally agree with anything Germaine Greer writes, but I liked her piece in the Grauniad this morning: link here

A powerful piece granted lovcat....but I'm afraid still too "devils pitchfork" for me.

Why does it have to be anyones "fault"?

He did the terrible deed,no-one is disputing that how could they?

However a child is dead and a family torn apart with both mother and father in fragile emotional and mental states- stirring up claims of the court saying it was Natashas " fault" can only be destructive.

I didnt like that 'died for nothing' quote- but I think it'd be wrong to take anything the Mother says as anything other than thre words of a grieving Mum who ahs been through hell, and that to judge or even comment upon her feelings in this case is a shame- the parent (parents usually but obv more complex) of adead child get automatic exemption for their reactions imo

I don't see anything pitchforky about Greer's article. She's merely pointing out the obvious imo - that the defence of provocation (which in general favours male defendents) was used successfully.

I really don't think wanting real justice always equates to pitchfork waving. There are enough men who walk free from murdering their wives, to make it perfectly justifiable to feel very disturbed about the case of a man who has murdered his child walking free. If we lived in a world where mysogyny and expecting women to take responsibility for male violence didn't exist, then I'd be happy that this verdict is the right one. But when you factor in the social and psychological background (IE mysogyny) into the equation, without actually having been in the courtroom, it's difficult to know if this is the right verdict. It's not pitchfork-waving to question it.

Yes Peachy that's a good point... we all say things we wouldn't probably normally say when under stress........... & a bereaved parent is probably as stressed as one can get.

LB & Dittany as I said but I'm afraid still too "devils pitchfork" for me Note the personal opinion there!

Perfectly fine for you not to agree but don't say I'm offensive just because I disagree with you please.

I quite agree that there are times when men get off lightly with violence against women/children & I hate that as much as anyone & will argue against it.

What I hate more, however, is the blanket labelling of all men as misogynists with homicidal tendencies when there are MH problems. Every case is different.

And LB he has not "walked free" a secure psychiatric unit is not soft option I can assure you. As you say none of us was in the courtroom-neither was Greer- so we cannot judge.

He may well have been a misogynist control freak, he may well also have mental health problems but to jump in & label him as one or t'other is just too simple IMHO . We were not in court we were not party to the psychiatric reports & advice.

"and killed a woman's child in order to get back at her"

This wasn't a random act of violence by a psychotic inididual on the street the CHILD wa HIS child too and he has to live with the knowledge of what he has done for the rest of his life, just as his ex has to live with seeing it all unfold before her on that terrible night.

I don't believe it was a cover up but we weren't there so who are we to say it was or wasn't?

but Dittany it is madness, he has simply flipped at the thought of living wihtout his children or her leaving him or a combination of both. i think many women and men too, it doesn't need to be a gender issue heer are capable of pushing people to heir every limits and in this instance he's flipped. he has also been dealing with the terribel burden of habving two siblings commit suicide, so a man on the edge without a doubt. tell me, is it not a bit weird in this situation to have got married again? i can't for the life of me think of how in those circumstances you could contemplate a wedding. Also she has said all along that he was a wonderful father, does that not count for anything, how does that make him a violent misogynist? I think it would be so refreshing if just occasionally people stood up and said you know what I'm responsible for this too. I can't stand this culture we live in where all people do is point the finger at one another and absolve themselves of anyblame whatsoever

" can't stand this culture we live in where all people do is point the finger at one another and absolve themselves of any blame whatsoever "

applauds elliot