Pensioner with undiagnosed Alzheimer's and tragic death of baby

[Kindofcrunchy]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-62503903

Can't believe there are no threads on this, or maybe they've all been removed so far, I don't know.

Maybe it's just the pregnancy hormones but I can't stop crying over this. What a tragic waste of life, easily prevented by family and friends of Robertson speaking up when they had concerns over her health. This just goes to show that there needs to be regular driving tests for people of retirement age.

Why GPs? Surely it is DVLA and either resisting the driving test or a specific assessment.

@Clymene I assume because this thread is about a specific case of an elderly driver with dementia. That's the topic people are discussing.

Just coming on to recommend the Institute of Advanced Motorists Assessment www.iamroadsmart.com/courses/non-members-driving-assessment which can be taken by anyone of any age. It's framed more as 'identify and fix any bad habits you may have got into' than as a test of any sort. It gives you an impartial and professional base line from which you can have a conversation like 'here are some things that need attention, here are some ways they can be addressed, if you prefer not to address them and stop driving here are some ways you can still maintain your independence, what do you think?'

@BeethovenNinth

you can report it anonymously to the DVLA if you like

I’m in late 50s. I don’t have an objection to resitting a driving test at say 70, but how will that help when condition could come on literally the day after the test.
To be effective you’d really need to have a test every year…there aren’t enough test centres or inspectors to cope with that - particularly in an ageing population.

So the best solution would be an online test that can be done at home. Right now there are still many elderly that can’t cope with that or don’t have access to a computer at all. It would penalise people who can still drive safely (with years of muscle memory to cope with that technology) but get freaked out and flustered or confused at something on line or using technology they aren’t used to. I certainly am inexperienced and crap with online games and have crap eye hand coordination, but could see that a simulation environment test format could be an excellent way to go if it wasn’t for incompetence like me.

I certainly think the laws need to be tightened to say it is an offence to NOT report someone who you believe should not be driving. This isn’t just aimed at elderly but to people who are still drinking/drugs and driving, people you suspect have sleep apnea etc. posters in here saying their elderly relative refused to stop driving, we can understand why as it is loss of independence. But really it should be a crime not to report someone you believe may have issues- the police should be empowered to do a quick assessment of the situation and be able to refer person to resit a test in the same way as you get referred to speed awareness course.

There is little pressure to invest money in tests specifically aimed at the elderly. Statistics are a tadge confusing, but there is no evidence to support that elderly drivers cause MORE accidents than any other group, and the 17-24 year olds still cause the most accidents. There is a perception that we have loads of unsafe elderly drivers because the press publicise these stories where someone has been killed by elderly person - the other crash down the road caused by joe blogs on his way home to his family in a bit of a hurry doesn’t make national headlines.

We don’t for instance create special tests for male drivers even though statistically they cause a lot more accidents than female drivers Or elderly drivers. If we go the route of special testing, then first we need to improve testing and teaching to eliminate the danger of young and inexperienced drivers, who at that age think they are invincible

I was quite excited at the prospect of self drive cars. I felt this was the ultimate solution to allow elderly their independence but keep the roads safe. Clearly the latest stories aren’t good about their safety but it is early days still. I think the technology involved in that could be used and mandated for all drivers in certain risk groups such as the elderly, young male etc. These sort of inbuilt safety devices that self drive cars have had to be developed could be used to overrule manual drivers where they’ve not taken action fast enough. Some of them like acc are already in place but there’s not enough education to explain how much safer it is to drive with them on than off

however, yet again there are people who don’t want to be told how to drive their car and who have a powerful lobby to stop these safety features being mandated .

so we are where we are for now.

So could taking all young male drivers off the road

@Headbandheart

Because most people driving more than a decade wouldn’t pass their tests, so if we only made older drivers retake their tests there would be outrage, especially with an ageing population

Whether you can drive safely or not also depends a lot on where you drive - lots of people can safely pootle to the supermarket and around their immediate area, long after they could safely drive in an unfamiliar city.

So unless it’s something bleeding obvious (a stroke that leaves them half paralysed) the only way you could fairly say an older person (or any person with a relevant disability) can’t drive safely is if their doc says so.

At at that point you have to question whether the costs and time are justifiable, given that older drivers cause fewer accidents than young ones, and that some issues will be missed - if this lady had been checked 2 years before her accident, she might have been totally fine.

HNRTFT but I personally blame her family! Her car keys should have been taken away from her .
Her Mental Capacity would effect her judgement on safety etc
We took our MiLL keys away and yes she was very angry but absolutely no way would she have driven if she understood how dangerous she was !!
Sorry we did not want that on our conscience as a family if there had been a horrific tragedy.
Absolutely heartbreaking for the poor babies parents and family 😢

This was what made me donate to their foundation.
If you’ve been ttc you know.
unimaginable anguish.
heartbreaking. No words.

I wasn’t clear- not point I was making. GPs are massively in short supply and with a very long trying. We can’t “afford” as a nation for them to be doing routine driving assessments on all elderly. It is just not feasible.

if we believe we want some sort of assessment routinely and regularly for the elderly in whatever format that is, it will have to be per of,Ed by another agency or a new role.

we can’t keep dumping stuff onto GPs, even if people were asked to pay for it like travel stuff, here just ain’t the resources to do it,

Trying? Training

When my FIL was diagnosed with dementia the consultant told him to stop driving. However MIL blamed me as I had raised the question whilst at the diagnosis consultation.. MIL and my two BIL over-rode the decision and encouraged him to drive. It caused a huge family row from which we never recovered.
The case of Louis is a tragic accident but it could have been caused by such people as my in laws. I believe that over 70s should be tested yearly.
Louis' family have started a campaign to get this started. It is well worth a link and perhaps a donation if you feel as strongly as I do.

www.louisthorold.com/about

@Headbandheart 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

I dispute that some elderly people can drive safely to their local supermarket but not round an unfamiliar city, though I know it’s what lots of people say. Driving is driving. It’s about reaction times and judgement, and a kid is just as likely to run out in front of you or some other in foreseeable thing happen that you have to react to, on the way to Tesco’s as it is on a long drive. Don’t most accidents happen close to home as people get complacent?

That said, like others I don’t really have an answer unless we can somehow put massive resources into regular testing for the elderly. My father, who had dementia, went on driving longer than he should have done, thankfully causing no more than a couple of parking-related dents. You could say I, my mother or siblings should have stopped him but we simply couldn’t, he would not listen. He was not so cognitively impaired in daily life that he could not have sorted it out if we’d taken his keys. I reported him to his GP and the DVLA but they did nothing.

Unfortunately Robertson doesn't have many close relatives, and it's also important to remember this was during covid, so I expect people were keeping their distance more than usual.

The young men argument while true needs to be taken with a punch of salt. Men drive on average more than women. So if you base it on accidents per mileage the gap closes quite a bit. On top of this the difference between young men and young women is actually narrowing, and not because young men are in less accidents

www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/90505/data-suggests-women-drivers-speed-more-than-men

while this is with rental vehicles it is interesting. The men bad women good brigade our out in full here because us women cannot possible the cause of anything bad, I’m sure someone will say the patriarchy makes us speed.

www.syracuse.com/news/2011/07/women_worse_drivers_more_crashes_than_men_less_driving.html

this shows the opposite - while I don’t blindly believe both studies it shows it’s not as clear cut as people think, plus the second one makes a note that because of height differences women are more likely to be involved in intersection accidents (as this was the USA there are far more, and roundabouts here help reduce these impacts and make them at slower speed)
what is interesting with that study is analysing the gender of both parties in a crash ie male on male. Female on female male on female crashes

the biggest issue I have with car safety is that crash test dummies are based around men, meaning that in the same type of crash women are more likey to be injured or killed than a man. Because of that car design is based around men.

but back to this topic, there is a difference between single vehicle crashes and multi vehicle, data as to what causes single vehicle crashes is lacking, I am of the view that competency tests (not a retest) should be introduced at an age point, either that or make having a license like professional body accreditation where you have to do continued development over a period of time, say if you make a license valid for 5 years you need to have done x amount of points of training in order to renew it otherwise you have to retest from scratch

It really should be mandatory for people to retake driving tests. Not sure at what age though. I know do many people who had to raise concerns with dvla with elderly driving concerns. My own grandmother had friends where the man’s eye sight was so poor, he couldn’t see to drive. No one did anything to notify dvla. Of course he should not be driving. Instead, he had his wife turn the wheel, tell him to apply the break etc. she had no driving licence. Years later, my own grandmother had lost the use of her arm (failed rotator cuff surgery as she did no physio as it hurt). She could not steer her car. Finally after upteenth fender bender (not insignificant) that she stopped driving.

She would have known she had caused the crash, even if in the moment she was apparently not responsible for her actions. If it's true that she continued driving then It's appalling.

You do understand the principle of memory loss? (Although I do feel that her relatives should certainly have stepped in at this point).

I live on an estate where there are a lot of elderly people who drive. If what some posters on here say is true, there would be carnage on the roads here every day. Obviously there isn’t. Another thing I never see is elderly people fiddling around with their mobile phones when driving.

An accident is a combination of (rare) events. For every Shelagh Robertson, there are thousands of over-70s driving safely, and thousands of concerned people who do make sure that their elderly relatives stop driving when it’s no longer appropriate.

I also live near a couple of schools. If we’re voting for who needs re-educating about safe driving, I’ll vote for the parents (I won’t say women) with a couple of kids in the car whose eyes and attention are anywhere but on the road!

"She would have known she had caused the crash, even if in the moment she was apparently not responsible for her actions. If it's true that she continued driving then It's appalling."
*
You do understand the principle of memory loss?*

Yes, thanks for asking.
She would have been told afterwards the events which caused the crash.
She would have seen the dash cam evidence - it's on several news websites and makes it clear that she pulled out into the path of the van.
It's been reported that she even admitted afterwards that 'I just didn't see him' (ie the van)

So if it's true that she subsequently continued to drive, yes, I believe that's truly appalling.

My Nan had dementia and was driving the wrong way around roundabouts and was a total danger but refused to let my grandad drive. It caused huge family arguments and she was distressed and angry as when she was confused she didn't recognise it.

There are lots of things that make for bad drivers but as we age there are some things that become more common and therefore it's easier to monitor and legislate for.

I wouldn't expect it to be a full driving test but for people to be d as bad to demonstrate they know which side of the road to drive on, how to negotiates junctions and roundabouts, can see clearly enough and have the physical strength/flexibility to manage to manoeuvre a car in a difficult situation.

*for people to be able to

My DM and another woman were killed by a pensioner drifting into oncoming traffic. Others were badly injured and airlifted from the scene. It went to court and he walked away with a fine.
He couldn't remember a thing about it.

Don’t hold your breath guys

We grassed up my dad to the DVLA and his GP and absolutely nothing was ever done

luckily he had a stroke in the end and was forced to rescind his license

but really it’s down to the authorities as well and good luck with that. I literally never heard anything back from them

Yep, same here, down to it taking a (third) major stroke to actually stop him. DVLA and GP never got back to me either.

DVLA needs to massively tighten up and change their requirements that allow people to drive.
the poor parents, poor baby
just heartbreaking 💔