Page 3 | Pensioner with undiagnosed Alzheimer's and tragic death of baby

PuttingDownRoots · 13/08/2022 06:34

What a sad case. There wold be limited benefit for punishing the driver except a feeling of justice. (Although I hope her license was revoked).

As for elderly drivers.... I can see how people hold off too long for reporting concerns. Cars are many elderly peoples lifelines for independence. They need them to go the supermarket,medical appointments or to see friends.

Redoing driving tests sounds a good idea for everyone but they would need to recruit a lot more examiners before that could happen!

Suzi888 · 13/08/2022 06:40

“But in the case of Alzheimer’s you don’t feel dodgy, you feel absolutely fine.”

^^
This isn’t true. Not in all cases. My aunt had it and my uncle currently has it- at the very start both recognised there was something very wrong. Both knew they are/were becoming forgetful. My aunt slowly became unwilling to accept she had an illness. My uncle is 85 and still in the early stages - eight months of slow decline.

Hobele · 13/08/2022 06:55

And on another thread posters are berating an OP for wanting to report crap driving.

I can't believe nobody noticed she had dementia and she got away with it. Th family was probably be able to afford a good lawyer.

70+ should go to yearly check to see if they're still fit to drive.

HoppingPavlova · 13/08/2022 06:56

Also, I have known several young people who have shocking eyesight but have never bothered to get tested, and I shudder to think of them driving, but people never seem concerned about that.

surely though, when they go for their license initially and then go to renew it they need to pass the eyesight test? Where I am it’s a mandatory step of renewing your license, I assumed this would be standard everywhere? There would not be enough time between renewals for eyesight to deteriorate to ‘shocking eyesight’. Elderly need to be tested yearly which covers eyesight as this can deteriorate rapidly in period and over a certain age you need a Dr’s sign off and a physical driving test with examiner to renew your license each year. Again, I thought this stuff would be universal?

Hobele · 13/08/2022 06:58

2pinkginsplease · 12/08/2022 23:19

I really feel for the family of the poor baby however @drpet49’s comment is harsh, people with dementia don’t show emotions easily , lack empathy, and become confused with the situation they are in, she may be unable to demonstrate her emotions.

mrs Robertson has been let down leading to this awful tragedy . So sad. There are no winners in this situation .

My grandma has had dementia for years, she's been diagnosed about a year or two ago, the signs were there for a v long time. I'm not sure what stage it has to be for somone with dementia not showing emotions, my grandma still does. If what you're saying is true, people around her would've seen the signs.

srey · 13/08/2022 07:00

Not all forms of dementia present and progress in the same way.

Scepticalwotsits · 13/08/2022 07:13

I don’t blame the women the nature of her illness means she would be unlikely to be aware or make that call.

the self certification and relying on friends/family to take the keys just doesn’t work.

I do think that once you are entitled to your bus pass in order to then keep your license you have to have period competency tests.

doesn’t need to be a full retest but basic awareness and reaction speeds etc, and also have a certification from a doctor.

what time frame that should be (ever year, every 2 years etc) I don’t know.

people say under 25s worse and it’s true, but that’s why licenses in the first two years have stipulations on them. Also like in this incident the actions of a elderly driver caused an accident but they themselves were not in it, so often things like this don’t get reported or hit statistics looking at just accident numbers

picklemewalnuts · 13/08/2022 07:15

There are different kinds of driving, too. Driving in London for the first time needs to be given up far earlier than driving to the supermarket you've driven to weekly for 30 years.

It's not cut and dried, not obvious when someone should stop. I mean, I know a few men who I feel less safe in their car than I do with my elderly mother. Can't take their license off them, though!

BeethovenNinth · 13/08/2022 07:18

This makes me think of the elderly lady across my road who has had a stroke and seems barely able to walk, has carers, but uses her car.

it makes me very uncomfortable. She got out her car the other day and asked for my assistance in getting in her house as her “side had stopped working”

I don’t believe she should be driving but she has no relatives that speak to her and is fiercely independent. Fair enough except I dread reading she has done something similar

Recycledblonde · 13/08/2022 07:38

I wonder how many people on this thread have driven when acutely short of sleep? It is extremely dangerous and responsible for many accidents.

onlythreenow · 13/08/2022 07:44

There would not be enough time between renewals for eyesight to deteriorate to ‘shocking eyesight’.

A driver's licence is valid for 10 years, that's plenty of time to develop eye problems - isn't that why it is recommended to have your eyes tested every couple of years? Which obviously a lot of people don't do - including myself, but I don't drive.

TeaStory · 13/08/2022 08:05

HoppingPavlova · 13/08/2022 06:56

Also, I have known several young people who have shocking eyesight but have never bothered to get tested, and I shudder to think of them driving, but people never seem concerned about that.

surely though, when they go for their license initially and then go to renew it they need to pass the eyesight test? Where I am it’s a mandatory step of renewing your license, I assumed this would be standard everywhere? There would not be enough time between renewals for eyesight to deteriorate to ‘shocking eyesight’. Elderly need to be tested yearly which covers eyesight as this can deteriorate rapidly in period and over a certain age you need a Dr’s sign off and a physical driving test with examiner to renew your license each year. Again, I thought this stuff would be universal?

In the UK, renewing your photocard licence is done every 10 years and we fill in a form. An eyesight test isn’t part of it.

KangarooKenny · 13/08/2022 08:15

I reported a relative to the DVLA and it was all sorted very confidentially. The person was furious and demanding to know who had dobbed them in.
The rest of the family weren’t happy either as it meant they had to do more.

Candleabra · 13/08/2022 08:18

Also shocked by this case. Poor baby and poor parents.

Dementia an incredibly broad description of a variety of illnesses. Alzheimer’s disease is used (often incorrectly) interchangeably. There are so many variants and everything presents differently in different people that there’s no typical or exact timeline particularly in the early stages.

In almost every person I’ve known with dementia the signs were there early - BUT - it was only with hindsight that we realised this. It’s easy to say “you must have known you had dementia “ but all the factors: denial, lack of insight, thinking it’s just old age etc play a part. Plus fear about loss of independence is a huge thing for people in the early stages.

My own mum drove too long. We stopped it when we realised she couldn’t read or understand the road signs or traffic lights. So far too late. I feel terrible thinking she could have hurt someone or herself. I agree there should be mandatory driving tests (but I’ve always thought everyone should be tested regularly, not just in old age)

onlythreenow · 13/08/2022 08:22

In the UK, renewing your photocard licence is done every 10 years and we fill in a form. An eyesight test isn’t part of it.

Well that's even more scary!!!

sellthesizzle · 13/08/2022 08:44

Tragic awful case but agree with posters who say there needs to be more official non- family rigour around driving license renewal at 70. It's very hard to tell an elderly relative they shouldn't drive and doing so can cause family rifts as losing a license takes away a lot of an older persons independence.

picklemewalnuts · 13/08/2022 09:03

There are many many impairments that affect people's ability to drive, regardless of their age. We over focus on the elderly with these conversations.
People with impatience, highly stressed, short of sleep, angry...
I see many awful drivers on the road. The elderly are not the ones knocking up the mileage and accidents, despite this tragic case.

leicestermare · 13/08/2022 09:18

What an absolute tragedy. I can't imagine anything worse.

I agree that Shelagh Robertson can't be made an example of - that's not how conviction and sentencing guidelines work. She was found not guilty of the charge through insanity and we need to accept that.

However, I really hope the means is there for the judge to follow this case up with recommendations or at the very least some further information to take things forward. It strikes me that this must have been a borderline case - after all, the mrs Robertson was deemed fit to stand trial (and I can well imagine her defence team would have tried hard to make a case that she wasn't) There needs to be huge improvement in terms of medical check ups, retesting for drivers.

And one thing which really disgusts me (if it's true) is that Louis parents said they heard from others that shelagh Robertson continued to drive around the local area in the period following the crash before the trial. She would have known she had caused the crash, even if in the moment she was apparently not responsible for her actions. If it's true that she continued driving then It's appalling.

I also feel for the van driver who was reported to be a competent driver who did nothing wrong and just desperately tried to avoid an inevitable collision when his van was rammed off the road.

A terribly sad case and like I say, I hope we hear more in the aftermath of the trial. It's not enough to just say 'not guilty': there's a massive societal problem here

Scepticalwotsits · 13/08/2022 09:22

picklemewalnuts · 13/08/2022 09:03

There are many many impairments that affect people's ability to drive, regardless of their age. We over focus on the elderly with these conversations.
People with impatience, highly stressed, short of sleep, angry...
I see many awful drivers on the road. The elderly are not the ones knocking up the mileage and accidents, despite this tragic case.

its the case with hesitant drivers as well, in that the figures don’t accurately reflect the impac5 their unpredictability has. In this case if there wasn’t any pedestrians there and the van swerved and crashed, chances the cause being the other driver wouldn’t get on figures. Accident figures tell us who has been in accidents not who caused or contributed to them

Discovereads · 13/08/2022 09:49

Suzi888 · 13/08/2022 06:40

“But in the case of Alzheimer’s you don’t feel dodgy, you feel absolutely fine.”

^^
This isn’t true. Not in all cases. My aunt had it and my uncle currently has it- at the very start both recognised there was something very wrong. Both knew they are/were becoming forgetful. My aunt slowly became unwilling to accept she had an illness. My uncle is 85 and still in the early stages - eight months of slow decline.

Well, if you quote me out of context of course it’s not true in all cases! What I said in full was:
But in the case of Alzheimer’s you don’t feel dodgy, you feel absolutely fine. In the early stages (like Mrs Robertson was in), you also are not aware that your health is declining any more than it would due to old age.

It obvious I was talking about the early stages of Alzheimer’s which is where Mrs Robertson was at the time of the accident. And no, at the “very start” you don’t know something is very wrong. It’s only after months of slip ups and incidents that you actually notice & remember do you realise something is very wrong. So what you think is the “start” is actually going from early stages to intermediate.

Clymene · 13/08/2022 09:59

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/man-dies-motorway-crash-van-27497660

www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2022-06-12/man-arrested-for-causing-death-by-dangerous-driving-in-gloucestershire

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/kent-ramsgate-car-crash-death-injured-b2143672.html

west-midlands.police.uk/news/man-convicted-killing-two-week-old-baby-dangerous-driving

That's just the front page of google. Five people killed in as many weeks by men aged 35 and under.

The last one isn't as recent but the victim was a 2 week old baby.

The most dangerous people on our roads are young men, not old ladies. I don't see anyone calling for men to be banned from driving, even though they are statically more likely to cause more accidents and kill more people.

But then I never stopped being amazed by the ageism on MN

lollipoprainbow · 13/08/2022 10:06

So so sad such a beautiful baby they they had waited so long for life is very cruel.

twilightcafe · 13/08/2022 10:18

BeethovenNinth · 13/08/2022 07:18

This makes me think of the elderly lady across my road who has had a stroke and seems barely able to walk, has carers, but uses her car.

it makes me very uncomfortable. She got out her car the other day and asked for my assistance in getting in her house as her “side had stopped working”

I don’t believe she should be driving but she has no relatives that speak to her and is fiercely independent. Fair enough except I dread reading she has done something similar

You must report her. How would you feel if this woman caused a serious or fatal accident?

leicestermare · 13/08/2022 11:05

"The most dangerous people on our roads are young men, not old ladies. I don't see anyone calling for men to be banned from driving, even though they are statically more likely to cause more accidents and kill more people."

I haven't seen anyone calling for any particular demographic - whether elderly people, young men, old women, whatever - to be banned en masse. Surely the point is about keeping unsafe drivers off the road. Whether that's unsafe through being reckless, unwell, too fast, dangerously cautious ... I completely agree that statistically young men are likely to cause more accidents - but that's no defence for Shelagh Robertson. As I said before, the thing that shocks me most is the thought she may have been continuing to drive following the incident. Even if she was unaware of her actions at the time due to her dementia, she would certainly have been made aware afterwards that the crash she caused resulted in the death of a baby, the serious injuries of the mother and the utter devastation resulting from that for the wider families, the innocent van driver who's vehicle was forced onto the pavement. M
Even though Robertson was found not guilty, I hope there is a follow up from this case about the need for tighter restrictions about who is unfit to be on the road

Clymene · 13/08/2022 11:18

@leicestermare

This just goes to show that there needs to be regular driving tests for people of retirement age.

In the OP. Repeated through the thread.

Young men are much more likely to cause car accidents than elderly people. So why is no one calling for the regular driving tests for young men?