Archie Battersbee - Thread 4

[BreadInCaptivity]

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Archie Battersbee - Thread 3 http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/inthee_news/4601962-archie-battersbee-thread-3

Can anyone please explain to me in a bit more detail how a case gets to court. Does it only get to court after a process which involves eg other physicians from other hospitals giving an opinion? Is it dependent on ability to pay for private care? Or do the family determine how soon it goes to court?

Years before I knew them, a friend was in a coma following a brain haemorrhage. I'm told the doctors wanted to turn life support off after 3 days but the parents fought it and paid for private treatment. The friend eventually recovered, has a physical disability but is pretty active, works etc. I'm trying to understand why cases like that don't go to court but this one did.

She's also the one who is losing a child under the very cruellest of circumstances. She is not thinking clearly or rationally - frankly I don't know how she is even keeping herself upright. I find it astonishing that anyone watching this debacle play out canblame or condemn her for anything she does right now.

She clearly has people around her who are using her and her son to promote a wider agenda. Save your condemnation for them, and don't throw stones at a woman who is in the worst kind of hell.

Yup. None of this is about caring for Archie now. She has been told many many times that she is prolonging his distress and it's in his best interest to let him go.

JFK beating heart

As an aside, an example of how hearts will keep beating for longer than you’d think is that JFK’s heart was still beating when he arrived at hospital, even though his brain was missing. He still had a brain stem though and was making breathing attempts.

Green sleeves I've thrown no condemnation at her. I've stated clearly over and over I do t agree with her but can see why she's doing what she does. But also said her situation shouldn't allow for her to be able to make such accusations of people trying to murder her son repeatedly on what media that will go global.

What I've said is I disagree with the poster (who is very much in a small minority) that this shouldn't be discussed because Ms Dance herself has brought it into the limelight and wants it discussed.

You can't then choose that only people who 100% agree with you discuss it.

I feel for her. I think she's being exploited. I've just watched her on bbc news talking about how he's alive. She need help. She cannot see what's before her. That won't change the outcome. It'll just make that harder for her when it happens.

@PomRuns yes. I can imagine that the nurses in charge dread having to do the allocation. And the staff must dread coming in. I very much doubt that they have the 'brilliant' relationship mum thinks they have.

A heart with a blood supply will keep beating indefinitely, even outside of the body - Google heart in box transplant. It's amazing (and freaky!)

Some of this is covered in this article - www.theguardian.com/society/2022/aug/01/archie-battersbee-another-tragedy-highlights-need-for-independent-mediation-in-cases-of-children

It reminds me a bit of a horrific case of Ireland when the anti-abortion laws were in place and a young pregnant woman was kept alive despite being brain dead because she was pregnant (15 weeks). Her body deteriorated and completely traumatised her existing children. Her family successfully sued the Irish health service for the trauma extra.ie/2019/11/21/news/natasha-perie-life-support-court

What the quoted post actually said:

The reality is that by far the most bad feeling on these threads is directed at CLC and the idiots on FB exhorting Archie to leap from his bed and suggesting ludicrous miracle cures to Ms Dance. If that's unkind to CLC and those individuals, so be it. They can easily come on here and explain themselves.

It very clearly expresses the view that HD's cheerleaders and eggers-on, not HD herself, could come on here to justify themselves if they think they are being unfairly maligned. If you're so keen on policing everyone else's posting behaviour, maybe start by not deliberately misinterpreting what others have said.

No. The child's interests must always be put first. In this case there have been findings endorsed by Charlie's guardian, several medical experts and judges as to where his best interests lie. It's not controversial or judgemental to accept those findings.

Was your friend a child at the time?

it’s actually the hospital that brought it to court. The family wouldn’t agree to withdrawing treatment so the hospital applied for a declaration as to the lawfulness of the treatment. I expect they would have done in your friend’s case too if it had come to withdrawing treatment without the parents’ consent. I’m really pleased they’ve made a decent recovery by the way!

Is he? I know there is a best interests court order, but is that the same thing?

It’s not in his best interests to be moved or to be given new or continued treatment. The professionals are bound by the court order. They are giving Hollie astonishing leeway, because she is a grieving parent. And she’s repeatedly mis-using it, and then complaining she isn’t getting it. I think she is deeply vulnerable and being despicably exploited and I have huge sympathy for her, I really do.

Someone said why insist that an ECHR appeal must be lodged by 9am, or treatment wound be withdrawn at 11am. The hospital knew the application was just waiting for the last possible moment, so they created it. I imagine they did not even expect to be withdraw at that time at all. Whenever they’d set it, the CLC would have held the appeal for maximum disruption. Appalling. It wouldn’t surprise me if they do give more time when they are realistically expect to withdraw treatment after the ECHR refuses the application. Although they will have to balance that against giving the CLC/AA too much time to organise disruption, which is possible and doesn’t bear thinking about.

About CLC's agenda- they are part of Christian Concern who seek to impose their particular religious views on us all.

christianconcern.com/issues/

Interesting how they rail against judges making court orders requiring anonymity meaning that they can't use the details of a case for their own purposes.

@Hoowhoowho im very sorry you don’t to go through this.
you are absolutely right about the medical profession getting stuck on a diagnosis and path and not changing, when seen this in adults where they won’t take a step back once they have got their backs up. Fresh eye help.

JFK’s heart was still beating when he arrived at hospital, even though his brain was missing. He still had a brain stem though and was making breathing attempts.

I remember reading that if he'd been anyone other than the President of the United States, he'd have been declared DOA. As it was, it was some hours before it was announced that he had died. (I'm old enough to remember it.)

Why are some posters describing Archie as troubled? Do you mean because he either attempted to take his life or attempted some dreadful and v dangerous social media challenge?

The heart of it all I think is that Christian Concern regard human life as a thing received from and owned by God. We don't really have any say over our own bodies, or shouldn't do. 'Autonomy' is evil. Total submission to the will of God, interpreted by 'Bible believing Christians', is required. Suffering causes converts to Christianity, so if it has to happen it's better than the alternative (they don't say that suffering is a good in itself, just better than any decision which hastens death).

You'd spend a long time on their website before you found obvious facts such as that as society becomes more secular with better health care and public policy, suicide rates are improving; or that we know what reduces abortion rates and it isn't religion; or any engagement with the actual reality of life support or brain death.

I'm so sorry about your experiences @Hoowhoowho .

We are all human and prone to bias, medics and parents alike.

Archie's family seem to have been very anti authority, very much fight against the world kind of people. They must have been hard for staff to deal with, under such stressful circumstances. It's a very vicious circle.

The only relief in this awful story is that Archie is long gone. He's not suffering any of this, poor little lad.

I can imagine. This was an accident, but a preventable one. It what is said is true, he did this to himself. Fhe pain must be unbearable for when

@Cantanka assuming under-18 is treated as a child medically then yes, they were 17.

I don't think religious people should have any say in legal matters of this kind whatsoever, they cause no end of suffering and damage, look at Ireland.
All decisions should be based on science and science alone.

It seems to me that some sort of mediation service would have been valuable in this case and similar. Where completely independent people can come in, translate between medics and relatives, and act as buffers in tense situations. It would surely be cheaper than legal challenges through courts.

Do try answering the message that was posted rather than making one up that is easier for you to deal with. Obviously I never once suggested that Ms Dance come on here. I pointed out that most of the criticism on these threads has been directed at CLC and sad internet types who keep exhorting Charlie to leap out of bed and suggesting ridiculous miracle cures, not at Ms Dance; and it was perfectly clear that it was they who I suggested could come on here and explain themselves if they don't like it. But you choose to ignore that because you can't get all self-righteous about that.

The thing is, the agenda is constantly "Ms Dance is doing what any parent would do". As we know, that isn't true. But we've had people on this thread who have said how that sort of statement has made their own losses worse because they've been brought to doubt the decisions they made and the fact that they didn't fight against having machines turned off.

As you haven't bothered to read and/or respond to my post properly, it seriously calls into question how accurately you're reading anything else.

@Shehasadiamondinthesky religious people can often have great resources and experience for comforting people in these situations. None of the ones I know would be supporting any of this. The CLC are outliers.

They can have a different perspective, but it can be useful rather than simply 'unscientific'. People are more than science, hence we can at times appear irrational.

Reading the stuff Christian Concern put out it's clear that organisation is batshit crazy.