Archie Battersbee - Thread 4

[BreadInCaptivity]

Previous thread:

Archie Battersbee - Thread 3 http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/inthee_news/4601962-archie-battersbee-thread-3

It is very difficult I think of the cost from the doctors decision - one court case I can understand but from there is the enormous cost both legally and for ‘medical care’ which I believe comes from the NHS. How many operations does that pay for?

My friend decided to have a third baby and at the 20
weeks scan discovered the baby was severely deformed and was offered a termination. If the baby survived at all it would have been on life support and with part of the brain missing and eyes etc have a poor quality of life. She chose a termination and at that point had to go through a birth after seeking second scans and second opinions. She doesn’t regret her decision for a second. She absolutely does not - as she considered her elder two children and their lives. It was tragic it happened and she wouldn’t wish it on anyone but yes she made the right choice for her and her family.

Actually most people don't.

That's why these cases are so high profile.

Most people understand that when a qualified consultant tells you news you absolutely don't want to hear or have to accept that they are giving you the difficult truth.

He cannot be cured, there is no treatment anywhere in the World that will cure him, she is being given false hope. I thought she said could he be moved to a hospice and be given 3 days to sit outside with his family, who would look after him, hospices are not equipped or the right place to look after ventilated people with numerous drug infusions. Its all so sad but his interests must always come first and delaying the inevitable is just so unkind. Perhaps it would be better for her to get off the media and tv and spend all her time with him now.

That's why I think it's a bit brutal with how the hospital has handled it - her appeal at the Supreme Court thrown out yesterday, machines planned to be switched off this morning. Much as I think Hollie is not doing the right thing, I am struggling to justify the approach from the hospital too.

She has now had 9 days since the Court of Appeal ruling, and even longer since the High Court ruling. She and her lawyers knew which way the Supreme Court case was going to go, she effectively said so, so the sole purpose was to buy time which is what she's achieved. The hospital has been told in no uncertain terms that the current situation is harmful to Archie. @SpidersAreShitheads , don't you think it is brutal to keep subjecting him to all this treatment 24 hours a day, to keep forcing air into his lungs (which must be quite damaged by now) and to subject him to the risk of a sudden collapse of all his organs?

That poor little boy is brain dead which has been repeatedly confirmed. Archie is gone. What the family doing is awful. I understand they are grieving, but there is no Archie to save. And that bed and equipment could be used to save people who have a chance of recovery.

I don't type any of that lightly. My family went through this with a young cousin many years ago after a tragic accident. Young cousin was confirmed to be brain dead and the family asked that life support be removed after goodbyes were said. It was the compassionate decision for all involved.

She said on an interview I watched this morning he has a right to die outside in the gardens of a hospice with squirrels etc around him.

This really did raise my eyebrows.

I've noticed more and more her demands are always based on "rights"

It coming across as someone who quite entitled naturally I'm personally and always uses that argument.

My heart absolutely does out to her as another mum.

But she needs to start to accept Archie's rights in death aren't based on her wishes to be the one in control.

No, most people wouldn’t.

Most people, while heartbroken at the loss of a child would listen to the consultants telling them that there is no hope.

If most people would go to the ECHR then they would be inundated, because as hard as it is, there are children whose life support is removed every day.

And reality is that Archie is not alive.

Don't crowdfund, they can't accept money, it would all just go into the general hospital funds and they won't benefit.
I was involved in a similar case and members of the public sent cards saying how they supported us and wished us well and it was just so lovely to know that not everyone believed the horrible accusations against us. We got the odd box of treats too, but honestly, those handwritten cards meant the world at the time.

And why now? The timing seems very interesting. And wouldn't they want to see him first before commiting to this?

Are you referring to her previous name (LP) and the offences she committed?

It may be a factor but I think this is about her being wound up by people peddling false hope rather than being a woman whose motivation is something other than desperate hope that her child will wake up.

She's going to need some help afterwards and I seriously doubt the raging mob will be there for her. I hope she gets the support she needs.

Have any medics from other countries given interviews about it and how they think he can be treated / saved? Is there evidence of this?

I’m amazed we haven’t had anyone from the army or even anyone who believes the spin that is being put on this case has posted on any of these threads.

There have been a couple of posts from people disagreeing that the threads are here, and some suggesting the hospital may be being too brutal, but on the whole these threads have been one-sided.

Not that that’s a bad thing, I’m just amazed that it’s happened that way.

There are other countries that want to take Archie and they want to treat him," she said.
"Other countries are so supportive and they want him for treatment. They've got high success rates and I personally don't see the harm. If they can offer the slightest bit of hope.

We've only got her words for what these "other countries" are offering. She's already shown that she isn't fully comprehending what she is being told by the medical teams here in the UK. I do have the utmost sympathy for her but, sadly, she's becoming increasingly delusional. As others have said previously, it's a great shame that she doesn't seem to have real friends who can help her to realise how futile her wishes and beliefs and expectations are.

Yes let's agree. With the previous cases there was offer of treatment at the start and it was included in court cases about whether nhs felt it would benefit.

Why now indeed

They might be referring to the very varied and inconsistent stories that she gave to the emergency services when it happened.

Good god, Ive just been reading these

That poor boy, he must have been open to services Im guessing

Can I ask about those who are saying it’s a case of a planned withdrawal of treatment as ordered by the courts versus a ‘chaotic’ unplanned death where he has a cardiac arrest? What do you mean by ‘chaotic’? There would be no movement presumably in either scenario. Wouldn’t his vital signs just……stop? What would be visible to a layperson?

imagine for a second archie comes back, is she willing to give him all the support /care he's going to need as archie wont be the archie she knows, he'll be a vegetative boy, is this the kind of life that she wants for her boy? im a mum of a boy and i would not want my son to live in that state at all

The saddest part is when all is said and done and all the online weirdos who proclaim to love him move onto the next tragedy and change their profile picture and hashtag. Archie's mum will be alone wishing she could have this precious time back.

What really concerns me is that there is clearly not an effective legal system in place to deal with these sorts of scenarios. When there is unequivocal medical evidence that someone is brain stem dead, verified by several independent medical professionals, of course, with agreed upon testing procedures - that should be enough to force the ending of all medical treatment, regardless of the family's beliefs. Why any of this needed to come to court in the first place is beyond me, and doesn't serve anyone's interests.

@EnidSpyton, this came to court initially precisely because Ms Dance wouldn't allow testing to be done. Unfortunately by the time it was done it couldn't be done accurately according to the standard protocols. What we have here is several independent professionals saying Archie is brain dead and has absolutely no chance of recovery, but unfortunately the relevant protocols don't really cater for this situation and none of the professionals are able to say absolutely that he is dead whilst he remains breathing and with a beating heart. That's essentially a medical issue, not a legal one.

So what the legal system does is to work on the basis that he is alive and consider where his best interests lie. That is a very well-established, tried and tested but nevertheless difficult procedure, and inevitably it is going to be something that is much more subjective than just deciding whether someone is factually dead or alive.

If you can come up with a better system, I'm sure governments, courts and doctors all around the world would be delighted to implement it. Over to you.

Most people would do what is best for their child, not what's best for themselves.

Manifestly that’s debatable. It is in fact being debated right here.

No. It all seems from the interview anyway very vague as to what they can do..either someone has fed her completely false information or...she's being spun a story. Or is spinning a story. The timing doesn't seem right and their treatment doesn't sound possible

Most people, albeit with extreme grief and difficulty, accept the reality of death. Those who are unable to are sadly deluded. They are extremely hard to deal with. This is an instance of that.

This was discussed yesterday on radio 4 Today, and they had a judge who had been involved in similar cases. He said in all but one the case remained out of the news as the parents' wishes for privacy were respected. In the other case publicity was courted. Whilst I understand why this shouldn't be conducted in secret I do feel it should be possible to put some sort of restriction on the level of publicity courted by the occasional parent. I don't feel it is helpful and the patient has a right to privacy and dignity. When things spin out of control leading to talk of executions and guards needed at the hospital this is not in anyone's best interest - the child, hospital and staff, other patients and families in the same unit and although they wouldn't recognise it, the parents themselves.