Kirsty Allsop, Did you really say this? What were you thinking.

[VitalsStable]

Saying it was because of lockdown that WC could abduct, rape and murder Sarah. He would have done it regardless of lockdown.

@VitalsStable
You're ridiculously unfair.
To make statements like that you need to give the whole context of what she said.
She's a very bright women and not stupid.

She wasn't breaking any lockdown rules though, he was just making it up and police have plenty of powers to arrest people or lift them off the street regardless of lockdown. He could have said she fitted the description of a suspect or something like that. I had to go in a police car once to give a statement and give my DNA because they needed to rule me out of being a suspect for an apparent homicide. I was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and really not sure what would have happened if I had refused to cooperate. So I don't really understand that argument. He as an individual shouldn't have been in a position of authority.

[quote Paddingtonthebear]Just when you think it can’t get any worse

news.sky.com/story/sarah-everard-murder-backlash-as-north-yorkshire-police-commissioner-says-victim-should-not-have-submitted-to-false-arrest-12423202[/quote]
Horrendous!

Blaming the victim for not knowing her rights re arrest?

How many people do?

How can we find them out?

What would happen if we tried to enforce our rights?

I don't think lockdown itself was the problem, but the way the police behaved.

Someone in power decided it was more important for the police to prevent people taking country walks than to enforce mask wearing indoors or only essential businesses being open, so the police were behaving in crazy ways and trying to enforce laws that did not exist (there was no law that said what constituted local).

This did not lead WC to commit the crime and I agree he was going to do it because he is a psychopathic criminal, but it did facilitate him and facilitate the crime.

If the UK ever goes into lockdown again, the police must never be allowed to stop people exercising or walking outdoors or arbitrarily fine people for driving to see dying relatives. Only activities that directly lead to Covid transmission should have been criminalised (e.g. not wearing a mask indoors or allowing non-essential businesses to operate).

She wasn't breaking any lockdown rules though

At the time you weren't allowed to socialise indoors, or be out unless for "essential" reasons. Of course some of us went to friends houses for dinner but it had to be hush-hush.

KA has a point, unfortunately.

Let's not forget that Waynker is a coward, and lockdown presented him with the perfect opportunity to make a woman 'willingly' get in his car.

Is it a coincidence that Boris had announced that normality would start to resume from early March onwards?

Remember 8 March was when people were allowed to start being outdoors and having picnics with one other person only and when schools were re-opening.

Time was running our for him, he had to use the Covid breach guidelines soon for them to be believable and to capitalise on the fear people felt about breaching the rules.

She's right of course.

In any other circumstance where a 'policeman' approached and arrested you, you would have good cause to be immediately be suspicious and protest.

The vague and amorphous Covid 'guidelines' bullshit had everyone bowing and scrapeing. It's high time that all stopped.

So this could only happen because of lockdown???

The guidance on arrest and refusing arrest.

So if you refuse or protest they can chase and pin you down to stop you.

Good luck with protesting an arrest. She never stood a chance and neither would any of us if we were in her position. Unless we punched him in the face and ran anyway. But that’s assaulting a police officer.

@VitalsStable

So this could only happen because of lockdown???

I think she means this particular MO for killing - a police officer falsely arresting a woman who willingly got in his car under the belief she had committed a crime/breach of Covid guidelines - could have happened in a lockdown.

No one has said women don't get killed outside of lockdown, that would be patently untrue.

@doublemonkey

She's right of course.

In any other circumstance where a 'policeman' approached and arrested you, you would have good cause to be immediately be suspicious and protest.

The vague and amorphous Covid 'guidelines' bullshit had everyone bowing and scrapeing. It's high time that all stopped.

No she is utterly wrong.

Outside of covid times all he had to day was she was suspected of committing a crime. If she objected he says her identity will be confirmed at the station and she is required not to obstruct the police with their enquiries, if she resists arrest then force can be used.

Its a criminal offence to resist arrest, whatever bollocks police commissioners are spouting.

I'm very confused today. On the one hand we have threads insisting women should resist/challenge arrest and on the other we have a thread insisting that a young woman (child?) resisting arrest got what she deserved when a police officer kicked her in the stomach.

He would no doubt have found another pretext, but the lockdown rules sure as hell made it easier for him. What could he have arrested her for so plausibly if there hadn’t been a lockdown?

Outside of covid times all he had to day was she was suspected of committing a crime. If she objected he says her identity will be confirmed at the station and she is required not to obstruct the police with their enquiries, if she resists arrest then force can be used.

By all accounts Sarah Everard was streetwise, resourceful and intelligent, under normal circumstances it's entirely possible she would have tried to scream or run for help, which could have panicked Waynker into letting her go.

The judge thinks she was inhibited by the Covid rules. I think this is part of why the judge gave him a whole life term, it was for his calculated manipulativeness of WC.

@byvirtue

The police were given extra powers during lockdown that were ridiculous. Do you remember the two women who were fined for meeting outside for a walk.

I myself had a run in with a single police man in a rural car park demanding to know where I had come from and if I (and my toddler) had “stayed local”. Fucking ridiculous, he wouldn’t be there today demanding that information so yes I do think lockdown had a lot to do with the Sarah everard case it gave him the power to do it and unfortunately for her she didn’t question it.

This. Sarah wasn't doing anything wrong. Covid gave him an excuse to arrest her and she complied believing she had broken covid regs. He would have killed and murdered her whatever as he's a vile man who had planned, prepped and followed her and her was brazen -stopping the car, showing his warrant card etc

Some officers are so anti women it is unreal. I called the police out as my husband had me and small daughter on the way to hitting me -huge bruise on my elbow -daughter hit in the back she was 7. Officers arrived and said it 50/50 and wouldn't get to court but if I 'insisted' I could have my daughter 7 taken in a police car without me, to make a statement to officers. She was screaming -that's what they suggested. Even then he said 'load of paperwork and I'm telling you now it won't go to court' -6 years ago hardly a lifetime. They were vile. When he turned up banging on the door and shouting I phoned the police -a female officer demanded I let her in and said 'for crying out loud it's his house too -why are being like this' and huffed and puffed. When he breached the restraining order again more huffing and puffing as 'following you around Tesco isn't the crime of the century is it -he's not doing any harm' -had a life long restraining order by that point. Jesus weeps.

@C8H10N4O2 - I don’t agree. If a lone bloke approached me and said I was being arrested as the suspect in a mugging and would I get into his unmarked car I would be highly suspicious. So I might make a scene - attracting witnesses.

That probably wouldn’t happen if I was persuaded that what was going on was legit (or, more likely, didn’t even question it at all) - like if it was a uniformed officer making the arrest. Or if I’d actually done something police were penalising people for at the time.

I think targeting fully law-abiding citizens would be high risk because you are more likely to get resistance.

@WishingYouAMerryChristmasToo omg that's absolutely horrendous. I'm so sorry that you were treated in that way.

2 women were fined by police for walking with cups of coffee. Of course it was lockdown that gave him the excuse for this, people were fined for sitting down.

Am I the only one who has thought what would I have done in that situation? Would I have gone with the policeman? With hindsight it’s easy to think no I would have refused etc but everything was so strange during lockdown. It was as if normal rules didn’t apply. I think that’s what this pig took advantage of.

No, it's normal to think about it and conclude that you would have acted differently. It's not blaming Sarah to do so.

@MaenadsJustWannaHaveFun I would certainly act differently now The trust has gone and I actually feel sorry for all the decent policemen and women who will have to suffer because their HR is so shit they can’t weed out a psychopath. He drove through McDonald’s with his pants off? What the hell? It is a catastrophic failure and I think it will be a long time before the trust comes back.

If a lone bloke approached me and said I was being arrested as the suspect in a mugging and would I get into his unmarked car I would be highly suspicious. So I might make a scene - attracting witnesses

A lone bloke but with a proper warrant card, a car with the blue light attachments and able to quote any old law and claim I was a suspect? Knowing that resisting arrest is a criminal offence?

If he said "look we will verify identity at the station and release you if not you"?

He was a convincing liar like most predators and a genuine office in a service we are expected to trust. Most people know its an offence not to comply with an officer, most would not risk that but suck it up until they got to the station and request a lawyer. Most lawyers advise non resistance to arrest.

its all bullshit victim blaming to suggest that Sarah or any other woman are culpable for not resisting arrest by a serving police officer.

I think she has a point although ultimately he is to blame but the lockdown rules probably stopped Sarah from using her own instincts more and the street would have been busier with people about.
It is another example of the effects of lockdown though albeit unforeseen and unanticipated.
A very different but also tragic and unforeseen death due to lockdown was the guy that fell between the gap getting off the tube during lockdown 1. A busy station but no one was there and so no one saw him fall and he was crushed as the tube moved off.
Obviously completely different to this case but still a tragic death that would not have happened otherwise.

Think back to the lockdowns. How many MNers were posting asking what the heck are the rules today? The govt. were castigated regularly on here for the chaos and uncertainty of vague requirements. So it's perfectly possible that Sarah was willing to believe a policeman when he said she'd broken them even if she hadn't a clue what she'd done wrong.

Whereas if you were stopped on the basis of being a burglary suspect or a shop lifter, you'd absolutely know you hadn't done it and would argue back.

The lack of clarity over the rules, and the draconian misinterpretation/implementation of them by the police, gave him a huge advantage.

I’m not victim blaming at all. Even if he managed to deceive someone into getting into that car with a bullshit reason that 99% of the population would have seen through, it wouldn’t have been their fault.

However, I maintain that attempting to arrest someone for a faked crime would have been more difficult to pull off. More people would have been suspicious in the first place. Many would question what was going on. Some would get audibly panicked or upset, particularly if they thought it was a genuine arrest. And others would resist, yes. Whether you should resist arrest is one thing, but people do it all the time. All of these things are likely to draw attention to what’s going on, which isn’t a problem in a genuine arrest where officers are behaving appropriately, but to be avoided if you’re committing a serious crime.

No, common sense says it’s easier to go for someone who is doing something they technically shouldn’t but who looks like an otherwise law-abiding and respectable citizen who therefore wouldn’t make too much of a fuss. Covid policing delivered that.