Beware - could be contentious - Smacking Bill - For or Against?

[JoolsToo]

They're trying to get a Bill through Parliament today to outlaw smacking altogether in Britain.

Your views anyone.

fyi - I'm agin it (the Bill not smacking) (oh what a surprise )!

On a "Little Angels" tip has anyone else noticed that the more recent episode seem to have parents who are fond of smacking but still have "difficult" children? I've found it interesting, because in all cases the parents have "come round" to St Tania's P.O.V. but I imagine that without the programme they would not have questioned the amount of smacking they were doing.

I find it very hard to understand why some parents are "slap happy" but fall apart if they are asked to listen to their little darling scream for 15 minutes. Or am I just a cold-hearted cow?

Perhaps you hit the nail right on the head FM. In the UK we don't like being told what to do. Oh darn I gotta go and get me shopping. The addictive nature of MN

Back later

Heck, not gone yet. I've never seen Little Angels but MariaL's post is interesting. Wonder if the same sorts of parents fall apart at the seems over any problematic issues. Be a very interesting study - would all these types be the same ones who have a hissy fit if someone cuts them up on the motorway, or if the builders are five minutes late, or if a meeting is postponed at work??? Playing Devil's Advocate and with that I really must go for the shopping.

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You have my sympathies Lisa. I know we all have a duty to report things we see amiss but I wonder how the person who reported the smacking chap in the article mentioned earlier now feels knowing how it has affected his family. If I genuinely thought a child was at risk I'd speak up but I would not be so inclined to meddle if I thought it was just a short sharp shock being administered by a parent at the end of his/her tether.

question of perspective though pagan...If I saw an 8 year old having her pants pulled down and put over her father's knee and hit in a public place I would assume that horrendous things must happen at home if he thought that it was ok to do that in public....

Thought we all agreed that that father went too far, and that what he did was not tobe classified under the "smacking" that is being debated on this thread.

Also, I thought this thread was about whether the government should legislate smacking... and not a debate on the morality of smacking itself.

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I remember discussing that case when it happens, and one of my friends said "but the humiliation is part of the punishment."

Wasn't sure what I felt about that at the time, and not sure I'm altogether easy about it now. What do others think?

Sorry, meant to say when it happened

I haven't read the whole thread in detail - skim read most of the posts. Definitely agree that Little Angels has some brilliant strategies for coping with difficult situations. I definitely remember being smacked as a child - by both parents. And where I'm sure smacking started as a small tap, I remember when we were older my mum using her slipper, and then a shoe with a hard sole! Interestingly, she kept an account of when I was a baby which I now have, and at age 14 months she writes that I was becoming a bit of a bully, and would pull her hair, and when smacked, would sometimes hit back. Well, what can a 14 month baby do that merits smacking? And it is hardly surprising that given that example, this was the result. Incidentally, I don't go along with the idea that a baby who pulls hair is a bully - all babies pull hair! I also remember my brother going through a phase of hitting me and my mother when he was intensely frustrated - again following the example set by our parents. My BIL did not consider smacking to be any sanction at all as a child - when threatened with a smack, he would reply 'You can smack me, I won't do it - you can kill me and I still won't do it.' And another child I know has started to hit back harder - the idea being that the one who hits the hardest is the winner.

I know that it can be desperately hard to cope with a two or three year old, but I can't see that smacking is the answer. And I think the idea of government legislation is to give a firm boundary - people have different ideas about what is 'reasonable'.

Uwila-it was a natural tangent. And although I have no great interest in debating the morality of smacking (know where I stand and why and just not that interested) I don't see why discussions shouldn'tgo off at a tangent. This isn't a strict "debating forum" after all. I just answered a point Pagan made.

Caligula-for me humiliation isn't one of the aims of punishment. TBH peole who are humiliated by a punishment seem more likely to end up feeling resentful and angry thus less likely to seriously contemplate and correct their own behaviour.

Off to pick up DD now.

tortoiseshell, I'm not sure that what you are describing is qualified as smacking. I think maybe your examples are hitting. Especially where the shoe was involved. Presumably the shoe was picked up so as not to hurt the adults hand. Yes, that's going too far, I think.

Anyway, I'm just opposed to too much government legislation. And, I also think that better enforcement of the current laws will do more for abused children than more laws that won't (can't) be enforced.

IMO, just being told off is embarrassing. I remember the feelings of embarassment well. You don't need to heap on extra humiliation by exposing her!
It's absolutely despicable!

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imo smacking is humiliating, it shows a complete lack of respect for the person doing it/the person who's being smacked.

I think that's what this woman was saying Bundle - her point was that being smacked in public wasn't just about pain, but also about humiliation. I think she's probably right about that. I wonder if that's true of private smacking as well. (I'm not sure to this day whether she was remarking about it with approval or disapproval.)

IMO it is acceptable to give a small child a tap on the back of the hand or bottom for repetitive bad behaviour after warnings of what is coming and all else fails - there are plenty of examples here.

I'm talking about your average loving family with no abuse issues. Real child abuse is a whole different ball game and no amount of legislation will solve that problem - some people are just plain evil.

I'm not talking smacking as an everyday occurrence and the first resort to resolve all discipline issues. I don't think anyone on this forum would condone, smacking babies or 'thumping' 'walloping' children (or any other emotive language you care to use). A lot has been said about the 'fear' factor. Fear is not a bad emotion, fear stops us from behaving in a way that would endanger us or somebody else - so I don't see a problem in say a child thinking twice before he pushes his brother off the sofa cos he's afraid his mum will give him a smack if he does. That doesn't mean your child is in fear of you - but more in fear of the punishment for being naughty - don't be naughty, don't get smacked - its a simple concept that a child can grasp quickly - he's already had the chat about why he shouldn't being doing it but he didn't listen so......
I have brought up 3 fabulous children all now adults, all got smacked on occasion but I think I can safely say me and dh have a loving, close and strong relationship with all three. They're not frightened of us, they are not damaged - they're just your average everyday well rounded human beings who know the difference between right and wrong.
I'm in no doubt that you could get the same result in another family who didn't smack - but it worked for us - and the very idea that the government could come in and say 'don't do that' makes me feel physically ill. Where will it end - next thing they'll be banning babies and toddlers having their ears pierced (I'd never do that) - that hurts for no good reason at all. Or even more important maybe they should bring in a Bill to stop smokers from doing so in the company of children. MMR is another case in point - you want single vaccines - go and pay - because WE SAY MMR is safe and you'd better believe us - we know whats best for you and your kids - NO YOU FLAMING WELL DON'T - KEEP YOUR NOSE OUT!

It should be banned for babies to be peirced!

(Runs away quick................)

JoolsToo, the only problem is that who defines what is "the average loving family with no abuse issues"? You'll probably find that most families define themselves like this. My DH was hit with a belt by his very average loving father. A pilar of the community. This is why we need a zero tolerance law on smacking.Yes, it will affect the socalled "average loving family", but if it saves just one child from abuse it's enough for me!

I find it sad that child protection organisations and childcare experts don't seem be listened to when it comes to this issue. They are being ignored. They are the ones fighting for this law, not actually the government. But everyone seems to think this is a "Nanny state thing". I don't understand it at all.

thats the problem though FairyMum - it wouldn't stop it. Those who don't have the capacity to stop themselves from lashing out violently - or mentally for that matter won't suddenly stop cos a Bill has been passed in Parliament. Social Services have a difficult job but even now have trouble protecting some children who are CLEARLY in danger. There's no way this Bill could have been effective and would cause all sorts of damaging problems within 'normal' families (my definition of normal anyway) - this has been argued much more eloquently than I can in other posts.

but jools it's for that exact reason that we needed the bill to be passed...so that police and social services could intervene when they deemed it appropriate! fairymum is so right: it's child protection agencies and the likes of the NSPCC that are fighting for this bill...there is a reason for that! spineless boy (blair) is running so scared from daily mail and the like that he won't do the right thing and allow it to pass...it's horrendous.

I think as well we need to be very careful about how we label people with "abuse issues". One smacker who doesn't bruise her child might get away with it, while another who does exactly the same thing might end up being investigated and being labelled an abuser for doing exactly the same thing.

I also think that percentage of 75% of people who hit a baby under 1 year old is salutory: how many of us here think it is acceptable to smack a baby under a year? Not many I bet. And yet, these people are in a majority - they are normal families with no abuse issues. Supposedly.

One of the thiings I love about mumsnet is that you get plenty of different view points and people wiling to share the time to explain and share their take on life. I admit, I even quite enjoy the odd disagreement as it makes me challenge my own thoughts and perceptions. However, this is the first time that I have felt really uncomfortable and unhappy about the difference in opinion. I am amazed that there are so many fellow mumsnetters who openly admit and even attempt to justify hitting their own children - gobsmacked is a better word for it. I am sorry if those "pro smacking" mums don?t like the word "hitting" but tbh I believe strongly that "smacking" is "hitting" and hope that by using this word my post won?t be sidelined into a terminology issue as we all know exactly what we are talking about - using force (ok - mild physical force in most cases) to stop a child doing something that you wish them not to do.

I only hope that this will be one of those issues that a generation on people will remember the "bad old days" when "some people still thought smacking was the best way to deal with naughty children" and will be able to thank God that it was now not only against the law but also commonly shunned - just like how people used to view drink driving - "not ideal but what the hell know and again if you go slow it is better than leaving the car in the pub carpark all night blah blah..." and now quite a different story.
After reading this thread though, I think it might take a while for the penny to drop. (I know that is contraversial but I have had a rubbish day and I mean it and stand by it and just don?t care)