Abortion limit should stay at 24 weeks - do you feel different about abortion after having a baby?

[TheDullWitch]

It is the 40th anniversary of the abortion act and I do feel that there is a generation of 20-somethings who take this right for granted and are doing nothing whilst others seek to chip it away.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7059169.stm

IGUN: what about contraception failures? rape?

and those women who do have sex without contraception - how shall they be punished? because forcing them keep the baby they didn't want is a punishment for the baby really surely?

AND I agree that the term "pro life" is the weasliest, most sanctimonious piece of widely accepted presupposition ever.

My views on abortion have changed since having both children and miscarriages.

I think we've got the whole thing arse about face though. Anomaly scans should be earlier and healthcare during pregnancy improved (let's start by paying for enough midwives and doctors so that people aren't forced to see their midwife for the first time when they are three months pregnant - the norm round here).

If we could identify problems earlier, perhaps more of them could be treated, instead of putting women in a position at 20+ weeks when they have two minutes audience with the exulted consultant, only to be told they have to decide, there and then, whether or not to continue a pregnancy because their baby is 'damaged'.

Better medical care and education would also drive down the number of premature infants being born (hopefully).

After all, we are paying something like £1m+ for each very premature baby's care (and for the parents of that child, yes it's worth it).

It seems to be a vicious circle where women are seen as negligent and/or babykillers when things go wrong.

As for my personal view of abortion now. I treasure my daughter and I believe every life is special. I also believe that before 20 weeks, abortion is horrible, but should be permitted with good reason (but not as a form of contraception). After 20 weeks, I do not believe it should happen except in absolutely exceptional circumstances.

No. No punishment but I think if awareness of contraception is heightened then the reduction of abortion will follow.

Obviously circumstances like rape etc need evaluation.

As you say, it's a very complex issue. Which is why a 24 week limit needs to be considered again but not in isolation. You can't just reduce the rate and do nothing else.

Look at Holland's approach to reducing teen pregnancy for example.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/special_report/1999/04/99/teen_pregnancy/319869.stm

but wmmc - the 20 week anomaly scan is at 20 weeks because most anomalies are undetectable before then, not because of shortages.

do you really think there are people who are unaware of contraception?

You don't have to put emotions aside - just not let them rule you.

Abortion IS a form of contraceptive. Just not a long term one adn one the medical establishment wouldn't allow for medical risks to the woman.

I think this social/medical reasons thing is a bit of a red herring. They can both mean the same thing.

If 'social' reasons mean your psychological well being, your capacity to care and provide for the kids you already have - they are just as valid as 'medical' reasons.

Can I also add, I think there should be a legal compunction for the NHS to ensure that from decision (after counselling) to operation should be a maximum of seven days. I know resources are an issue but how mentally traumatic must it be to have this hanging over you - particularly past the point where you feel the baby move (which for me was 12 weeks)

Senorapostrophe (still love your name!): I am confused now. I thought that the abnormalities like downs could be diagnosed earlier with amnio? We don't do all the tests we could because they cost a lot. I'm probably wrong but I had the major abnormality tests at 16 weeks for my DD because I have a cardiac defect which we thought she might also get and they can fix it in utero (how amazing is medicine these days?)

sorry - I replied before I'd read your link.

but I think a key phrase in that article is this:
"In Holland, there is social stigma attached to getting pregnant"

I'd argue that the high teen pregnancy rate in the uk is due to a lack of social stigma combined with a lack of ambition on the part of many teenage girls. The way forward is to improve education generally so these girls can see other options imo. (am not saying that all teen mums see no other options btw. but many don't).

I've said this before but I believe, rationally, that providing abortion to women, on demand, certainly up to 12 weeks (and pref 18 weeks) is the most moral, humane polity a society could hope to achieve.

I think 24 weeks is very late, and perhaps wrong, in relation to the advances at which a baby born prematurely can survive. Equally though I do not believe that a woman should be forced into continuing with a pregnancy and having a baby that she does not want.

There are some very sad people who seem to use abortions as a form of contraception, I remember a girl I went to school with had 3 in one year. . These people asside I think that abortion is something that affects and will affect a woman for all of her life. I dont think it can ever be seen as the "easy" option.

Although I dont agree with the 24 week "rule" I agree that by lowering it woman will be forced "underground" which would have implications for not only the women concerned but the country as a whole.

I do think that my opinions on abortion have changed since having ds, being in a stable relationship with a healthy chiid I would find it nigh on impossible to abort a healthy feotus. I had an appointment to have an abortion nearly 2 years ago, I changed my mind, then m/c'd 2 weeks later. I still feel guilty for ever making that appointment, although it made me realise that I wanted a baby more than ever and was lucky to concieve a few months later.

Apologies for my ramblings. x

no, we don't perform amnio on all mothers to be because it has around a 1 in 200 chance of provoking a miscarriage. the rate varies but it's around that - hence doing blood tests first.

but the 20 week scan is more about detecting things like spina bifida isn't it? that can't be detected by amnio anyway I don't think.

I think most people are aware of contraception. However younger women may not be aware of the range of options available to them and may not choose the one that will work best (e.g. condoms only work if you are both sober enough to use them correctly and indeed if you choose to do so, every time, and sometimes not even then).

Also what was that survey that said that a high percentage of women who had one abortion, went on to have another....???? I'm sure I read that somewhere....will go off hunting.

Yes. I believe that there are those who are unaware of contraception and the availablitiy of contraception. Also those who believe having sex just once won't get them pg.

Why do you think we have the highest rate of teen pregnancy in Europe? We are very lax about educating our young people in this respect.

Don't presume your level of education and understanding is the norm.

www.onmedica.net/content.asp?t=3&c=1601

A friend of mine gave birth at 23 weeks, he is now four years old. Surely if a baby can survive being born at that age it is murder kill them that late

GrimupNorth is right....and everyone knows you can't get pregnant if you do it standing up/douche with Coca cola/jump up and down afterwards

Strangely I know of a 16 year old who I told LAST WEEK that honestly having anal sex before vaginal sex does not work as a form of contraception (she thought that after the first ejaculation the sperm was all gone) .

Before having ds I was very pro-choice. Now, I am not sure that I could abort my own foetus, but I still support the choice of others to do so.

To say the limit should be before the 20 week scan is crazy - what about the family that would be coping with a possibly severely disabled child, and the possible resentment there? And giving away for adoption I am sure isn't all rosy either.

But obviously 35 weeks is much too late IMO unless for a very serious medical condition.

But then I agree with euthanasia too....

grimupnorth - see my subsequent post for why I think we have the highest teen pregnancy rate in europe. better sex ed may improve things a bit but not by much. all the teen mums I know knew exactly what they were doing.

see i think there are a proportion of girls who - no matter how barefaced they seem - are mortally embarrased to go to family planning.

I'm also a bit at the "social reasons" tag. It smells a little of the old "deserving" and "undeserving" poor, or Brass Eye's "Good AIDS" and "Bad AIDS"...

So, a woman shouldn't get and abortion because she is found feckless when measured against some list of worthy reasons to terminate a pregnancy. It just doesn't sit well with me, mainly because I can't see how anyone really does go into a late termination lightly. From a purely physical point of view it must be incredibly distressing.

I don't know re sex education though. I can assure you that in Italy there was (at least when I was growing up - I weas born in 1970) no sex education whatsoever at school.

I agree with wmmc re antenatal care, it needs imo to be improved.

Exactly. "Mortally embarrassed to go to family planning." That's why it needs to be out in the open, widely discussed, educated, frank and massively on the educational agenda so that we get rid of the embarrassment and make it the norm. And in turn reduce rates of abortion.

Re: OP, no I am still pro-choice after giving birth. The whole experience took over my body completely. I can't imagine forcing another woman to go through that against her will.

I would not have an abortion (except if the baby was diagnosed with a condition incompatible with life as I don't think I would be strong enough to continue with the pregnancy). This doesn't affect my views on a woman's right to choose what happens to her body.

Wrt sex education, it should also be compulsory - none of this "my dd/ds is too innocent for all this"/"it'll just make them all go out and have sex at 12".

It's not just girls being embarrassed to visit FPC, it's parent neglecting their duty to protect their children by teaching them about sex/contraception and then removing them from Sex Ed.