Woman to have baby taken away at birth...

[SharpMolarBear]

because she is likely to suffer from Munschausen's syndrome by proxy

The fact that the discredited diagnosis of MSBP has been brought up in this case is a huge red flag.

"terrible tragic news stories but their rarity is why they make the news."

No, the reason why these particular stories make the news is in this case the baby hasn't been born yet and in the other cases the children were dead. Living children taken from their parents cannot be reported upon because of contempt of court. These cases are not rare.

Did you read the figure I posted further up thread that 2000 children were taken from their parents last year to be put up for adoption compared to a third of the number ten years ago.

Pretending that this is a one-sided debate with no facts is just ridiculous.

Sophable, why are you being so aggressive and calling us nuts? It's not nuts to be concerned about this case, or any other we choose to discuss. No-one is saying all social workers are wrong, all mothers are right, this woman is right. What many people are saying on this thread is

• that the secrecy of the family courts is wrong
• that there have been well documented fk up in this area
• that on the face of it (and no, we agree we don't know everything) this seems wrong: this woman has offered to be continually monitored in a mother and baby unit. The minute the baby is born she may well be subject to an order that means she can't discuss it again.
• surely it's fair enough that she puts her case? Wouldn't you? and if you think it couldn't happen to you or any of us, read my posts on the other thread. I pretty much had a dr tell me I had better take some anti depressants "or you might get your child taken away" - because I was UPSET/borderline depressed! I wasn't anything else and yet I was threatened with that fairly pronto by a doctor who was meeting me for the first time.

Really, you question that there's widespread misogyny surrounding domestic violence/mental illness/rape/justice system. Do you? Really? I am surprised.

Forgive us if we question it, it's fair enough to do so imo.

Sophable, aren't you studying psychiatry? Or something similar?

Do you often refer to people as being "nuts"?

I think Bunglie might have something to say about miscarriages of justice in the family court system.

Sophable, did you see the MP supporting this woman?

"if it was a murderer not a mum would you be as indignantly self righteously sure of your correct miscarriage of justice diagnosis. "

You don't seem to be able to tell the difference between someone being charged with a crime and someone who has done nothing having a judgement made against them based on speculation, speculation that the various doctors involved aren't even agreed upon. Comparing her to a murderer is simply outrageous.

You do understand the concept of innocent until proven guilty don't you? She's being accused of and found guilty of being a danger to her child before her child even exists. I hope you aren't training to be a psychiatrist because your lack of a grasp on those basic facts or the realities of the case is rather scary.

I agree that this thread isn't a slag off social workers thread. All the SWs I've met involved in child protection are very clear that the consequences of them doing a bad job are that children are harmed
I also agree that we obviously aren't being told all the facts.

That in itself is worrying (although I understand the need for confidentiality) as surely now woman are less likely to seek help for rape, self harm or depression because of a very real worry their children will be taken away. Also, if FL appeals again and wins (not sure if another appeal is possible) do you think she'd dare seek medical help for her DD when she has the usual childhood illnesses / accidents?

mamzon, I know this isn't your area, but can you think of any circumstances where a request to stay in a mother and baby unit in this sort of case would be refused? (I don't want you to speculate, just if you know whether it's common or not?)

Thanks Mamazon for going through that for me. I can see that would be the case for a child at risk but this child is yet unborn so how can they assess the risk?

Fran is currently no more a threat to her child than you or me according to her psychiatrist & SHE's the one who knows her mental state the best surely?

I appreciate we DON'T know all the facts but as SMB says surely the fact that Fran has offered to be assessed is good & worth considering.

it bothers me too that the confidentiality get-out is being used. If FL has (and I admit we have to consider it might be IF although I hope not)really been as open & frank as she appears to have been about her history then why the secrecy? Police /other care workers are bound by confidentiality but are still open to criticism, investigation & review AND they have to justify their actions to the client/suspect too.

sharp molar bear - I am a Mental Health SW, but could have a guess at the answer to your question (a guess only!).

I suppose that if one believes wholeheartedly in the concept of Munchausen's by Proxy, and believe that this is a condition which could lead someone to harm a child given any opportunity, then it could logically follwo that it would be too risky for them to be in an MBU, both for the sake of their child and the safety of other children. In my experience of these units, one is normally expected to spend time alone with one's baby, carrying out normal babycare stuff, as part of the process of assessment, and one has to be assessed as being safe (to a certain degree) around one's own children, and the children of others.

I once referred a woman to an MBU, after she suffered a Bi-polar relapse requiring inpatient treatment. It took considerable persuasion for the unit to agree that it was safe for her to be admitted, and I wasn't party to their risk assessment.

sharp molar bear - I am a Mental Health SW, but could have a guess at the answer to your question (a guess only!).

I suppose that if one believes wholeheartedly in the concept of Munchausen's by Proxy, and believe that this is a condition which could lead someone to harm a child given any opportunity, then it could logically follwo that it would be too risky for them to be in an MBU, both for the sake of their child and the safety of other children. In my experience of these units, one is normally expected to spend time alone with one's baby, carrying out normal babycare stuff, as part of the process of assessment, and one has to be assessed as being safe (to a certain degree) around one's own children, and the children of others.

I once referred a woman to an MBU, after she suffered a Bi-polar relapse requiring inpatient treatment. It took considerable persuasion for the unit to agree that it was safe for her to be admitted, and I wasn't party to their risk assessment.

sorry for double post.

WWW, I am shocked and saddened to hear of your doctor's response to you. What your doctor told you was not only incredibly unkind and upsetting, but legally wrong. I have worked with many people with mental illnesses who also parent successful (and also have a family member in this situation).

IBS how refreshing to get some more authoritative opinion!

Do I take it that you DON'T wholly believe in MBP-or am I misenterpreting your words (if so sorry)

Could I ask if in your work you find it's a largely discreditied theory or one that is clung to?

bossybritches - I am afraid I don'tvhave any professional experience of Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy. It does feature in the ICD-10 (diagnostics manual for psychiatry). However IMO psychiatry is both an art as well as a science, and is influenced by various external and cultural factors. Homosexuality was once listed in this manual!

However, I would add that there are documented cases of parents inducing illness in their children, and this is a worrying issue which must be assessed where there are concerns about children's safety. However, whether we should view such abuse risk factors within a medical/psychiatric framework, and assume it is a syndrome to be diagnosed, I am not sure.

ImBarryScott, thanks. You know, I thought it couldn't happen to me. I was a successful, professional middle class woman of 33. Yet that doctor judged me for

• leaving my husband (unhappy marriage, no abuse or anything, just a mismatch) - he even questioned WHY, how dare he?
• having a termination
• having had a boyfriend after leaving my husband (he's now my dh#2)
• being a lone parent
• being upset because of all of the above and my best friend at the time suddenly deciding to drop me in a new town where I knew no-one

I went to see him because ds, who was 2 at the time wasn't sleeping and I hadn't slept for about 5 nights in a row. That plus all the above plus having no car to be able to leave/get to a friends house (I lived in an inaccessible part of Devon with no public transport) meant I couldn't stop crying. I had no history of depression (other than mild and unmedicated pnd) or anything else, I had £47k in the bank (not that it's relevant) but that dr THREATENED me with taking away my son . He'd never met me before. It was at the drop of a hat. I am blonde and I don't suppose it helped. It was completely outrageous and the social worker who was sent to meet me (at this doctor's instigation) agreed there was no issue and it was in appropriate. He suggested "You might wnat to make a complaint against that GP but I understand that you might not want to while you're still living here."

But guess what? I didn't. I shut up, put my head down, kept quiet. I was subdued because I'd been threatened with the worst possible thing when all I needed was some help/counsellnig/time.

This isn't all about me, sorry for going on but it just shows you how easily ONE doctor can make it happen. If I'd have had a SW who decided to agree it could all have spiralled VERY quickly. And when the SW visited I made sure my mum was there, my son was smart, my house was spotless, I was calm etc, I was TERRIFIED. And I'd done NOTHNIG WRONG.

WWW what a terrible experience for you! I see now as well why you empathise with Fran.

It IS frightening how things can kick into place so quickly on the say-so of one over-zealous GP thank god in your case the SW was on the ball & made a sane judgement.

IBS thanks. So it's not a fool proof, fully supervised option.
WWW, what an awful time you had So glad it went no further.

But why should Fran who has not got a child and who has not (as far as we know)had mental health issues of any significant concern for several years then why should she be considered so high a risk for such M&B unit?

It doesn't seem to follow...I can see now why M&B units wouldn't be suitable for ALL mothers with MH issues but taking a babe away at birth is SO draconian!

Thanks, but this isn't about me, apologies for my long post earlier, it was 8 years ago now, it's fine but I posted that just to show how easily it can happen.

I appreciate that it's not the same as Fran's case and none of us know the full details of that but I think it's relevant that misogynist doctors who don't think women should leave their husbands or have terminations can order SWs to turn up to assess someone who just needed some sympathy/sleep and to talk to someone.

That part could happen to any of us. And I didn't really believe it could until it happened to me.

EXACTLY www, that's the frightening bit.

It must have been dreadful for you, thank you for sharing it, shows it can happen to anyone.

But to get back to my original reason for posting on this thread many words ago...

Is there anything we can do to help Fran to highlight her case?

Don't know that she wants us to?!

Fran if you are lurking let us know if we can help in any way?

'do all SCBU nurses get looked at funny because of beverly Allet? '

Actually I was in nurse training at that time, and a very good indeed trainee nurse was asked to leave because of a history of depression (no contention there- he spoke to the whole class about it and the teachers admitted it was due to a fear of disrepute / reprisals rather than any fears over him per se), so it DID happen at that time!

But I know there are good SW out there- have worked alongside many. There are quite a few not so good ones though, eg the ones that won't return our calls with the resyult that ds3 still isn't on the disability index.

Every job ahs a fair share of good / bad staff members, not every job ahs the potential to destroy ives in quite the same way.

there are forms of monitoring besides M&B units I have seen owrk- I have known patients to be relased from hospital after a spell with puerperal psychosis to be given 24/7 supervision in their own home by a multidisplinary team built alomost of anyone they could get- homestart, surestart etc. This was after M&B unit admission, as a mid road.

bloody hell, it is stories like these that put me off going to HV etc incase of wrongly accused!
it angers me hos they get the wrong people, that poor woman and to think about all those children who have died at home and social services did nothing like that little african girl who lived out the bin and was tortured being kept in a cage!
i read somewhere about social services taking babies for adoption, something about a quota. horrifying stuff

"Every job ahs a fair share of good / bad staff members, not every job ahs the potential to destroy ives in quite the same way."

Peachy, this is the crux of it, yes.

Apart from the speeling obv

oh dear

crikey..just read this..and have so little time, gotta run...

am truly shocked at the treatment of this woman
and unborn baby

totally agree edam

www your story is horrific and so scary, glad it had the outcome it did

sophable.. you should read the thread from the start

SW, ..like any profession there is good and bad dedicated and those who are not, BUT Their mistakes can change blight scar ruin many lifes far and beyond...

check the record, check the guy's track record...

Just had this email from John Hemming-swift repsonse considering I only sent it late last night.

"Thank you for this message of support for Fran. There are various Early Day Motions that your MP could sign (tabled in my name). I have blind copied Fran in on the email and she may have other suggestions"

If anyone wants to do the same please do.

Having read this thread and trying to assimilate all the information available from the links, I found this part to be the most informative.

Despite this support, endorsed by other psychiatrists and Miss Lyon's GP, social services based their recommendation partly on a letter from Dr Martin Ward Platt, a consultant paediatrician, who was unable to attend the meeting.

He wrote: "Even in the absence of a psychological assessment, if the professionals were concerned on the evidence available that Miss Holton (as Miss Lyon was briefly known), probably does fabricate or induce illness, there would be no option but the precautionary principle of taking the baby into foster care at birth, pending a post-natal forensic psychological assessment."

Miss Lyon said she was determined to fight the decision. "I know I can be a good mother to Molly. I just want the chance to prove it," she said.

The council said the recommendation would be subject to further assessment and review. "When making such difficult decisions, safeguarding children is our foremost priority," a spokesman said.

My understanding of this is that the situation will be reviewed following the birth. This is the usual practise.

I have been involved in similar situations and following assessment most babies have been left in the mothers care albeit with very close Social workers input.