Statues should be left alone

[Rubyroost]

Ffs why target statues of Oliver Cromwell, Peel etc. They are history and should be left. Sorry, I know this is probably controversial. When will the book burning start?

Can we include al the religious statues as well. After all religion is responsible for a lot of atrocities

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras did she campaign against it or kill up to 600,000 people and send another 50,000 to the Caribbean as indentured servants? Would just be interesting to know...

[quote Pangur2]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras did she campaign against it or kill up to 600,000 people and send another 50,000 to the Caribbean as indentured servants? Would just be interesting to know...[/quote]
I thought it was just for protesters to decide?

Why should there be rules around it?

If sufficient people are offended by something then why shouldn't they pull it down?

This is why there should be conversations and proper process. Where does it end,? You can't say it's just what you find offensive can you? How many people would oppose religion for the deaths that's caused over the centuries?

Nah, get them down. Thousands died on the ships that he sent from Africa to America. Those poor poor people. He doesn't deserve a statue and it should have been torn down.

As far as I am aware, the new campaign is to get some controversial statues removed, through a process of dialogue and discussion. That’s what Sadiq said this morning. So you agree with the new campaign then?

As a black woman I do not want to be walking past a statue celebrating a man who bought, sold and killed my ancestors. The people of Bristol have been asking for this statue to be removed for years, but I suppose people who didn't want to 'change the landscape' decided it was better to keep memorialising a racist.

The roots of racism today lie in the slave trade. Racism originated with capitalism and slavery. Dividing people by race began with the slave trade. The idea of inferiority based on race (which is still with us today) was born out of the slave trade - the buying and selling of another human being who was seen as nothing due to the colour of their skin, their race. So, racism today is deeply entrenched in slavery.

Bleating about following the "proper process" is all well and good except for the structural discrimination that renders those "proper processes" ineffectual as a way to achieve meaningful change.

They exist to preserve the status quo and power of the people they were created by and for. Not to give the oppressed a voice or influence.

@Pangur2

As far as I am aware, the new campaign is to get some controversial statues removed, through a process of dialogue and discussion. That’s what Sadiq said this morning. So you agree with the new campaign then?

Absolutely. People can and should campaign for whatever changes they want.

I just disagree with a mob going in and doing whatever they want.

What's the saying "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"?

I can just see this going very wrong, very quickly if some order isn't restored.

A statue is clearly a celebration of a persons life and achievements

It is not a physical history lesson.

So definitely it should come down.

Wow @corlan, maybe I should just fuck off home, eh?

No, stick around. When all this Corona stuff is over, you can come on a day trip to France with me and we'll tell them to take down their statues of Napoleon and Joan of Arc.

Exactly @kazzer2867. I just don’t understand people who can’t see your point of view on this! And @user197, you hit the nail on the head.

Bleating about following the "proper process" is all well and good except for the structural discrimination that renders those "proper processes" ineffectual as a way to achieve meaningful change

Agreed. I think a lot of the people sniffing that there should have been a democratic effort made are either completely unaware or will fully ignoring the fact that there had already been multiple campaigns and petitions to remove the statue; which were completely ignored by the very council that is now releasing statements about how brilliant it all is.

And to pick up on why we should change the landscape... Because changing landscapes is an act of power that influences how everyone who passes through that landscape experiences it. We can shape it to reflect the society we are now.

Why should we continue to enable white male slave traders to continue stamping their power on the lives of people today? Why is that desirable? Why are you so invested in defending such power?

But racial discrimination today has nothing to do with slavery. Sorry, it just doesn't and it has nothing to do with statues

Racial discrimination has everything do so with slavery - alongside colonialism - stealing people out of their country and making them work for you, or stealing their country while they are still in it and making them work for you. These were possible because of the supremacist mindset. The Catholic church had to declare black people to be non-human to allow the slave trade to flourish, as slave ownership is forbidden in the bible.

This mindset took root.

And Harriet Tubman died only just over 100 years ago.

When enslaved peoples were emancipated it was into a deeply racist segregated world. Their own family structure ha been destroyed by years of rape of women, they were starting out with no education , resources or support.

Segregation continued legally until the 1960s. There are people who grew up believing in segregation are still in power today.

I do not believe that slavery is the ONLY cause of racism, but slavery , the transatlantic slave trade, depended upon and established a different value on the life of human beings because of skin colour and you can trace a direct line between that and contemporary racism.

The contact that people had with people of African origin was via the enslavement of Africans and the people they colonised. They knew little of the proud histories and cultures of free black people living in African civilisations.

And how can you possibly say that 'racial discrimination has nothing to do with statues'? When black people are forced to walk daily past an agrandised image of a man who branded and sold their forbears, flaunted as a civic monument? I find it pretty fucking discriminatory to(literally) put a man who profited from slaves on a pedestal.

You don't sound controversial, you sound ignorant.

By the way I reckon that in about 20 minutes the statue of Cecil Rhodes in Oxford is going the same way as Colston. Unless Oxford police are on it with their riot control.

@Rubyroost Would you think it would be appropriate for Germany to have statues of Hitler celebrating his achievements? Would you like Saddam Husseins statue to be put back up?

@Destroyedpeople

By the way I reckon that in about 20 minutes the statue of Cecil Rhodes in Oxford is going the same way as Colston. Unless Oxford police are on it with their riot control.

I imagine Thames Valley Police are going to do exactly the same as what Avon & Somerset Police did; which is to make the tactical decision that they aren’t nearly resourced enough to safely stop anyone; and the safest thing to do is to let it happen and concentrate on protecting people.

Yes I agree. Priti Patel must be pulling her hair out....

@corlan I don’t understand your point about Joan of Arc; she led a war against forces that were on par with her own. A normal war/ battle, if there is such a thing. Not the same, but happy to be proved wrong if you have information about her apparent war crimes. I just did a quick google and couldn’t find anything...

Napoleon has been called out for war crimes in Haiti, for using gas to kill people before Hitler did and absolutely loads of other dodgy things. Perhaps Napoleon is France’s version of Churchill. They are so proud of his achievements for their country but perhaps also need to be able to discuss the bad things he did too. Maybe they will have a discussion about their statues too; good idea.

@YinMnBlue Oh I understand the arguments that racism is linked to slavery, but I don't agree. And racism definitely pre-dates capitalism. When people discriminate against black individuals today they do so because of racial stereotypes that exist in contemporary society and I do not believe these racial stereotypes are linked to slavery at all.
But, honestly I don't have an issue with what happened to Colston, but I feel that Khan's campaign to get rid of the likes of Peel and Cromwell is ridiculous.

@SimonJT I never thought that the UK should have gone into Iraq and participated in 'regime change' but that's another debate isn't it?

'I do not believe that these racial stereotypes are linked to slavery at all'..

Instead of dismissively announcing what you 'believe' like it's really important or something why don't you just think about it a bit maybe do some reading?

@Pangur2

There is a new campaign: www.toppletheracists.org/

Bristol had been trying to get that statue removed “the right way” for years, but they weren’t listened to. Hopefully now people will listen and things can be done in the “right” way in future.

Bristol held a democratic vote on whether the statue should stay or go a few years ago. 56% voted that it should stay. He was a huge benefactor to the city, after a making a fortune in a trade that was, at the time, perfectly legal.

History cannot be rewritten just because it doesn't suit you, or it becomes fiction.

@Destroyedpeople I've done lots of reading and the arguments don't ring true to me, because whether you like the word believe or not, that's what they are- arguments, theories, not fact.

What are statues for? I have never understood even growing up staring at them in boring church services.