Statues should be left alone

[Rubyroost]

Ffs why target statues of Oliver Cromwell, Peel etc. They are history and should be left. Sorry, I know this is probably controversial. When will the book burning start?

@ Rubyroost - I don't think Jimmy Saville is a good comparison to the likes of Peel and Cromwell.

Are you seriously suggesting that Cromwell and Peel were more worthy than Savile? For starters, Cromwell committed genocide in Ireland.

This is a tricky one. We have evolved so much over the centuries and besides slavery there are so many practices that were deemed normal at certain points in time. To give some examples, the way women have been treated, child labour, the feudal system (which to all intents and purposes enslaved peasants)...the list is endless. However, lots of great things have also been achieved in history, often by the very same people that supported regimes or systems that we would find abhorrent now. Many of the statues that have been erected honour these people for the good they have done but dig a little deeper and it is hard to find anyone that doesn’t have a murky past by virtue of the era that they lived. Who knows - In a hundred years time some of the things we find acceptable now might no longer be sociably acceptable? I also think perhaps the whole statue debate maybe distracts people from the real reasons why these protests are important?

I thought that Banksy's suggestion was excellent for a replacement of the statue being one of the protestors pulling down the current one.

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Couldn't the people of for example Bristol vote on whether they wanted the statue of Colston put back where it was?

Give people a few months to think about it and different people time to express their views...

If they do, that's okay. The council do that. If they don't job is done, it goes in a nearby museum.

And ditto other statues.

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If the people of Bristol don't want it up anymore, they clear the paint off it and put it in a nearby museum. And put an exhibit next to it about the recent events with the placards and things as well maybe.

I struggle with the concept that removing statues , removes history or even changes it.
I do think that removing statues after considered conversation and debate from all sides - makes history.
The history is there forever already surely ? A statue is a just a celebration of an individual.
History itself is a process of creative destruction in itself. William Morris recognises this in the 1800’s when the colonists & their money , tore down the old to build their statues and monuments ?
But what was torn down before, still remains history.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8433231/Cecil-Rhodes-fall-Oriel-College-Oxford-opts-remove-statue-British-colonialist.html

I think there should be voting. Just in case the people of Bristol for example want the Colston one there.

There WAS a vote about the Colston statue. The majority wanted it to stay.
Obviously the knuckleheads who pulled it down knew better than them.

When we went to Tblisi last year, there was a guy dressed up as Joseph Stalin, smoking a pipe, standing in the public park. He was a Georgian, and many Georgians still feel pride in him. So, people were queuing up to have their photo's taken with him.
It seemed very strange, and not in a good way. But you can pull down all the statues you want, but it doesn't change how people feel.

I like your question baahh and would like to see the answer myself. Perhaps it's worth starting a separate thread to get more attention?

@MaMaLa321 - There WAS a vote about the Colston statue. The majority wanted it to stay. Obviously the knuckleheads who pulled it down knew better than them.

Anybody who thinks a statue of a slave trader is desirable, is not somebody I would have much respect for. Is Bristol a hotbed of Britain first?

So, several posters have said there should have been a vote on it. I am pointing out that there was a vote. And the majority wanted it to stay. It doesn't matter if you have respect for them or not. That is, if you respect democracy. If you think that your opinion outranks those of others, I think that says something about you.

@MaMaLa321 - please point out where I said a democratic vote should be overridden? I didn't say my opinion outranks theirs, as one of the drawbacks of democracy is that racist bigots have the same say as everyone else.

You didn't answer my question on whether Bristol is a hotbed of Britain First? I would imagine anyone who believes a slave trader is someone to be lauded is likely to be racist.

You didn't answer my question on whether Bristol is a hotbed of Britain First? I would imagine anyone who believes a slave trader is someone to be lauded is likely to be racist.
trying to unpick this

• why do you assume I want the statue to stay? I believe that, if you have a vote, you don't allow a mob to overrule that vote. If that makes me a racist, I'd be interested in your reasoning.
• So, you think one poster (me) is a racist, and you've assumed I'm a Bristolian, do you think one poster reflects the whole of the city? That seems a bit odd.

@MaMaLa321 - why do you assume I want the statue to stay?

I don't assume that at all. I assumed that, as you knew about the vote, you had some connection with Bristol. If you are connected with Bristol, you would presumably know if it's full of Britain First types.

I obviously wasn't clear. I am assuming the people who voted to retain the statue are in favour of lauding a slave trader. I think that anyone who is in favour of lauding a slave trader is, more than likely, a racist. I'm just wondering is that the general demographic in Bristol (I'm not British so know nothing about the city) or is it more the case that a small number of people voted and their vote is not representative of the city as a whole.

I have no idea what your position is on the statue. I don't believe you said.

@jobhunter7 I hadn't heard that about Banksy - I love that!

The statue was put up by the Victorians to recognise Colston as a public benefactor to Bristol. 150 years after his death.
I have no way of knowing, unlike you, what people's motives were when they voted on the issue.Maybe they are lauding someone who gave a lot of money to Bristol? Who knows?
I don't believe it is right to ask people to vote on an issue and then ignore that vote.

Maybe they are lauding someone who gave a lot of money to Bristol?

Perhaps. However, if they were willing to ignore the fact he was a slave trader who made his money on the backs of slaves, they obviously believed the money donated outweighed the horror and inhumanity of the slave trade.

Colston was not commemorated as a slave trader, but as a benefactor of the city. There's a difference in point of view, driven by time and sensitivity that suggests his statue should be moved

Except presumably, when the vote took place, it was because there was a movement to remove the statue due to his status as a slave trader.

our history is whitewashed with bullshit and this needs to be corrected.

I've never encountered such entrenched stupidity. Even the people selling their own produce were surly. Dreadful food, no interesting history -- apart from the European contribution. The beaches were lovely.

I don't have words to respond to this. This is a very jingoist attitude that is the reason certain nationalities aren't particularly welcome in many countries.

Nothing jingo in my attitude. I went as a tourist. Hated it. Won't go again.

It is the history of a country, and if you dislike it. then you may wish to live in a more agreeable country.

it is the history of a country, and if you dislike it. then you may wish to live in a more agreeable country.

I do live in a more agreeable country.

Perhaps. However, if they were willing to ignore the fact he was a slave trader who made his money on the backs of slaves, they obviously believed the money donated outweighed the horror and inhumanity of the slave trade.

Possibly because they were, in the majority, white and didn't actually give a shit where the money came from?

Delighted that you do. I hope you are enjoying the freedom to speak your mind freely and benefit from a political system that gives you a voice. If you were the person who reported my post and had it taken down by MNHQ, please reflect on your power to suppress my expressed opinion... which was merely the view of one tourist after a visit to one island in the Carribean. Would you have objected to an unfavourable review on TripAdvisor?