So explain to me how you & I benefit from the rise in immigration

[contentiouscat]

Please explain to me who except the already rich employers (and translators) are benefitting - im not trying to be contentious I would just like to understand.

They are cheap labour therefore why should a british employer pay a decent wage i.e enough for you and I to pay our mortgage when they can get an immigrant willing to live 20 to a house in substandard conditions. So wages will go down.

They dont pay much tax because they are on minimum wage plus are sending a lot of their wages out of the country.

They are entitled to healthcare and as this report says are costing the police money.
news.uk.msn.com/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=6167846

I also read yesterday that european immigrants are entitled to tax credits for their children who still live abroad (wtf), hospitals, police, school have to employ translators - of course this is all coming out of the piggy bank you and I have paid into for years and will continue to.

I just dont get it - SORRY!

Backtobasics erm I was being sarcastic. If you read my earlier posts you would see that I am actually not on the side of the op.

And frankly it is you who is stupid for not realising that. If you had bothered to read the posts properly you would've seen that I had said that it was up to the shop to ensure that their staff had a decent grasp of the language - so her problem should be with the shop owner rather than the immigrant cashier ffs

I cannot read all the posts but I live in East Anglia and the regional economy relies on immigrant workers to do all the rubbish jobs that locals won't - mostly picking and packing vegetables. There is now a large Portuguese community in Thetford and elsewhere. I live closer to Stansted Airport and a lot of workers there are from Eastern Europe, b/c unemployment is so low here, and they have the necessary language skills.

Meaning your problem.

sorry start - that was for backtobasics

Look - i'm not discriminating against immigrants but from the area i live in it just seems they get everything first.
Dropsophila (sp?) I don't really want a council house but on the wages i earn can't afford to buy, and mums house is very crowded.
And i do think we should be more like Australia & America and have very strict entry laws, like for one must speak & understand fluent english, must have a trade etc. because we are an overcrowded country as it is.

MissM, none of us are responsible for or have any chance of changing immigration policy in other countries. They are welcome to put whatever restrictions they like on emigrants from Britain or wherever.

The point is immigration to Britain does affect us, for better or worse, and we are entitled to have a grown-up discussion about that without bossy know-it-alls saying 'you can't talk about this'.

Observer today says Home Office/Foreign Office having a row about restricting immigration from Romania/Bulgaria. FO convinced few people will turn up from latest EU countries so no restrictions necessary (where have we heard that before?).

As for Poles, I doubt any of today's immigrants played a role in WW2.

well edam my dh is an Eastern European immigrant and I have seen first hand how some people treat him as a second class citizen when they hear his accent. So there is definitely a thinly veiled racism involved in this thread, if you ask me.

how sad that we can;t discuss stuff without accusations of racism.

I don't doubt racism exists but I think accusing anyone who wants to discuss immigration of racism is rather rude, tbh. Rapid social change is unsettling and throws up problems as well as benefits. Pretending it doesn't have any impact is just plain daft.

I think it will be interesting to see what effect migration from Europe has, given that over the past 30 years immigration has been largely from Asia. Very different history and culture - how it will all work out I don't know but it will be different. And it will be fascinating to watch.

So Muppet, what you are really cross about is government policy, not immigrants?

What drives you mad is how the government manages things and the policies they have in place, not immigrants.

What you hate is how the systems in place are not, in your opinion, adequate, not immigrants.

And so on and so forth.

I have not read the thread but Edam, "how it will all work out I don't know but it will be different. And it will be fascinating to watch."

I find it quite scary that such a huge social experiment is being carried out without our consent or even any discussion - because some idiots squeal about racism every time any negative effects of mass migration are mentioned. We don't even know the numbers involved and many of the effects could be, and should be, quantified e.g. on schools, hospitals, housing etc.

See today's article by Minette Martin

Edam - I'm not suggesting that any current immigrants played a part in WWII. More poiting out the historical link between the two countries which in my opinion means that we do owe them in a way.

I think the history with Poland is mutual, tbh. But I feel the same way about people from countries that were once part of the Empire - we have a historical debt to them so if I was in charge of immigration I'd give them preference over people from other countries (apart from refugees fleeing persecution, obv.).

FWIW there's a big Polish community in Hammersmith where I used to live - people who originally came during the war and their families. I think they really added something positive to the neighbourhood although it's hard to quantify exactly what it was. Hopefully those from the current generation who choose to stay will do the same.

But... it is undeniably true that current levels of immigration are putting a strain on public services (while at the same time it's true that plenty of immigrants are working in public services). My local hospital is struggling to cope with sudden, unexpected boom in the birth rate caused by immigration from Eastern Europe. I feel very sorry for the immigrants who are working in shitty factories where they are exploited, but the government has to do something to keep up with demand, i.e. provide more funding to my local maternity services, for example.

One of the problems is that the most recent waves of immigration were unanticipated. The governament genuinely did not anticipate that so many people would come over here, so didn't think much about the impact. Also the immigration pattern was very uneven, some of which was due to how individual recruitment agencies worked, and particular industries that had labour shortages. So ares that previously had not had a great deal of immigation suddenly had an influx of Polish families, and the local Catholic schools etc had a bit of a surprise that they weren't ready for. Poor planning really and it has led to worries about the next EU entrants, which are a group of fairly poor countries, and again it is possible that large numbers might come this way. Otherwise I think people have to bear in mind that there are many different sorts of immigrants. There are those joining established families or communities (think of the huge number of young Australians etc). There are the refugees from disintegrating countries. There are skilled workers (many of the NHS nurses/doctors), and then those taking advantage of the EU freedom of movement rules. Then there will be lots of other smaller categories, coming for education, or relocation of jobs, or just because the UK seems a good place to live if you decide against living whereever you live now. All of these groups will bring different benefits and costs.

Good analysis, Nooka.

With an OP like that this was never going to be anything other than a contentious thread was it ?!

I haven't read the whole thread through (my eyes hurt!) so apologies if these point have been made already but just a few things I wanted to add:

a) I agree with MaisyM on the point about most of us being of immigrant descent somewhere along the line (did anyone see that fascinating programme where they did DNA testing on various people - mostly rascist bigots! - and found that all of them had a pretty mixed genetic pool and had ancestors from all over the world? It was brilliant)

b) I know it doesn't answer the initial OP (other people have done that pretty eloquently) but I just wanted to point out how exploited and hard done by many of these migrant workers are. I've done a lot of work on it and some of the cases I've seen of below minimum wage salaries, dangerous working conditions, sexual harrassment, racism, bullying etc are enough to make you weep.

c) I do think it's quite a complicated issue because it's not just about 'me' or 'us' (or 'them')and the impact immigration has on our lives but it's about much bigger issues about the global economy and how incredibly f**ked up it is! Frankly, I think we should be more outraged that international trade policies and trends of globalisation have led to a situation where people are so impoverished in their own countries that they have to travel hundreds of miles (sometimes risking life and limb) to a grey, sad town somewhere in Britain where they'll slog their guts out doing jobs no one else wants to do, getting paid pittance, all so they can send a few quid home to feed their families. Surely that's more shocking than the fact that we have interpreters in our hospitals and schools?

Sorry, I'm ranting. I'll go back to lurking now...

Of course i am not saying one can't discuss immigration. I am not saying there are not problems [particularly with govt and legal policy] I am not saying everyone is racist on this thread. What I am saying is that there have been elements of thinly veiled racism on this thread. For example saying things like immigrants do shoddy work and take our council houses.

If farmers can no longer find local people willing to work for them, and people from elsewhere in the country are no longer prepared to move around to where the work is available, they have no choice but to bring in people from overseas, and it must be the same in many industries.

We also have to ask ourselves just whose bright idea it has been to sell the idea to our young people that they are better off with a degree in pop music than they are with an electrician's apprenticeship.

The fact is that for as long as we have a skills shortage and a lack of people willing to work in jobs they consider beneath them, we will be reliant on migrant labour.

mytwopenceworth - when you put it like that maybe your right. But i do believe the system is wrong.

Then be mad at the system, and voice your opinions about the system. This is a democracy, after all.

But be clear in your own mind about where the problem (as you see it) actually is.

I Vote although not sure who to vote for in the next election but do believe under GB he will have better control over immigration and how the system operates

Hello nearlythree! [Like your new name!] Haven't seen ou around in ages. hope you are all well x

I'm sure if the Govenment asked the public to fill out an annoumous form about what they thought about immigration, most would say they do not like the amount of people coming to this Country to live. Partly because most cannot support themselves, partly because alot cannot speak much if not no English and partly because they think it's wrong that immigrants can freely come here and claim our benifits which they haven't put a penny towards.

Sadly the majority of people won't speak up about their anger on this subject in fear of being branded a racist. Look at some of the people on this thread saying 'you don't like immigration so must be a racist!' Most people on this thread have genuine concerns about this subject but are still branded a racist. Until we can get out of this over the top pc frame of mind, no one is going to say how they really feel.