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So explain to me how you & I benefit from the rise in immigration

373 replies

contentiouscat · 19/09/2007 11:19

Please explain to me who except the already rich employers (and translators) are benefitting - im not trying to be contentious I would just like to understand.

They are cheap labour therefore why should a british employer pay a decent wage i.e enough for you and I to pay our mortgage when they can get an immigrant willing to live 20 to a house in substandard conditions. So wages will go down.

They dont pay much tax because they are on minimum wage plus are sending a lot of their wages out of the country.

They are entitled to healthcare and as this report says are costing the police money.
news.uk.msn.com/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=6167846

I also read yesterday that european immigrants are entitled to tax credits for their children who still live abroad (wtf), hospitals, police, school have to employ translators - of course this is all coming out of the piggy bank you and I have paid into for years and will continue to.

I just dont get it - SORRY!

OP posts:
Peachy · 22/09/2007 15:15

That's why we love it isn't it?

TheMuppetMuggle · 22/09/2007 15:18

Theres only 2 things about Immigration i detest, and that is the fact that i'm on the waiting list for a house and have been for 5yrs, but know i won't get one, i'm a single mum and work 30hrs a week. now if i was an immigrant i'd get a house just like that i don't thats fair at all, i pay my taxes and as i'm a british citizen i think i should be entitled to everything first.
2nd if they are going to come and live in this country they should learn to spk & understand fluent english (i work for insurance company so spend alot of time on the phone), if i moved to there country they'd expect me to spk there language. yesterday a customer rang and asked if we would spk to her in polish as she couldn't spk or understand english very well but had lived in the UK for 5yrs.
Its things like that really bug me.

mytwopenceworth · 22/09/2007 15:23

Actually, it is prioritised by need, not by nationality.

Furthermore, many immigrants are not allowed to, for example, a council house, or benefits.

Depends on your visa.

My dh, for example, is not permitted to be on our tenancy agreement. We've been married nearly 10 years, he's been in UK 15.

Put simply, a woman living with 5 kids in a bedsit has priority over a woman with 3 kids living in a 2 bed house.

Peachy · 22/09/2007 15:25

Well not alla reas do give immigrants priority for council houses for a start!

Could I also ask why you presume they don't pay taxes? If they're working (and the vast majority are- that's the whole point) then they will be paying taxes same as everyone else,, well not the same actually- statistically they're a lot less likely to be in the UK to claim the pension they ahev been apying for (and all the NHS costs that old age can bring) so technically we are better off in that sense from that!

TheMuppetMuggle · 22/09/2007 15:25

So I'm a single mum living with my parents my DD 2.5yrs is in the same room as me but theres no houses available - yet all the new builds i've seen put up in our area are saved for immigrants and key workers (that i have no prob with) but the other how is that fair??

TheMuppetMuggle · 22/09/2007 15:27

Peachy i'm not saying they don't pay taxes coz they prob do - but its just those things bug me.
esp the fact most ppl i spk to on phone who have been here more than 3yrs still don't spk no english.

Peachy · 22/09/2007 15:28

Housing is a complex area- Custy is a good one on that- but how do you know the immigrants aren't A) key workers (many are) or B0 paying private rent / mortgage?

Wher I lived (no idea of system here) you'd have to be homeless (techinically homeless) to get a house in your situation- an immigrant wouldn't get priority because that was contrated out- if you're not getting the housing you need, perhaps I could advise that Shel;ter have a really good advice line, i've known them to help people in similar positions (genrally IIRC the relative they were living with ahd to confirm the person would be thrown out soon).

TheQueenOfQuotes · 22/09/2007 15:34

and the reason some immigrants are housed before Brits is because they don't "turn down" the really cr*p housing (damp, bad areas, falling to pieces) that a lot of Brits do (I remember at least 2 threads on MN asking "should I take this house/flat/whatever or wait for something else).......

TheMuppetMuggle · 22/09/2007 15:35

Peachy coz a lot of ppl have said there relatives are throwing them out our housing association aren't accepting that as excuse now, i know coz one of my close friends done that and council said tough would have to move in with friend till house became available.

TheMuppetMuggle · 22/09/2007 15:36

I haven't even been offered a house/flat etc if it was damp i'd still take it knowing the council would have to sort it out.

Peachy · 22/09/2007 15:39

Seriously muggle then, call upt he Shelter site and ask their help- they WILL know how to help (the case I worked on they helped with, young girl was on her second choice- ie if you rejuect you're off list, similar to you 1 baby witha unt etc- and the only house they offerred was next door- wait for it- to the man who just got out of jail for trying to kill her! She said what- council; said off list then. Shelter did help).

TheQueenOfQuotes · 22/09/2007 15:42

Muppet well if you do get offered a house/flat with a damp problem I hope it is sorted out PDQ. I'm no snob by any means - but I would certainly think twice about moving into a house which has a damp problem, as that can cause mould and mould can cause all sorts of health issues.

TheMuppetMuggle · 22/09/2007 15:45

Thanks peachy will look into that then.

So can i ask why none of them don't learn english, esp of they are going to be live & work here for more than a yr.

1 Man i spoke to on the phone had been here 7yrs didn't understand a word of english and do you know what his excuse was the government wouldn't pay for him to learn english and didn't think he should have to pay to go to college and learn.
So when trying to help them out with insurance is very difficult as i don't think i should learn another language as they have opted to come here.

TheMuppetMuggle · 22/09/2007 15:47

QQQ - prob is if i rejected it knowing my luck i'd have another 5yrs wait so my DD would be 7 if not more before i get a house, we are overcrowded as it is

drosophila · 22/09/2007 18:53

Muppet why do you want a council house? There are probably threads going at the moment where people are being unpleasant about single Mums looking for council houses.

Fact is this economy relies on immigrants and you just have to get over that.

PSCMUM · 22/09/2007 18:53

Muppet, you don't get ANY priority for local housing becasue you are an immigrant NONE AT ALL IT IS A TOTAL LOAD OF BOLLOCKS

you get priority for housing when you are a vulnerable homeless person.

If you went to your local housing office, said your mum and dad had kicked you out and you had nowhere to go with your kids, they woul dhave to house you, as a bulnerable (becasue of the kids) person who is homeless.

It is EXACTLY the same criteria pplied to immigrants, except that many immigrants are not entitled to even apply for public housing even when they are homeless. For example, people from the new EU countries - Poles for eg, are not allowed to access any kind of public funds for 6 months after they come here. People who come over here on a wide variety of visas also have to prove, before they come, that whoever theyt will be staying with can provide for them, as they will not be allowed any recourse to public funds. Some people are not even allowed a GP becasue they are immigrants.

so please, do your research before ignorantly blaming immigrants for your housing problems.

THe lack of council houses is becasue good olde Maggie thatcher thought up the great idea that we should sell them all, become a 'nation of home owners' but ooops, forgot to release any public funds to build more to replace the ones sold. That is why we have a crisis. Not becasue of immigrants.

TheQueenOfQuotes · 22/09/2007 19:02

yes and if you did take it, and the council didn't sort it out (pretty common from what I've been told by RL friends) you would be putting your DD's health at risk.

SlackSally · 22/09/2007 20:11

'The ones who say they are desperate to get a job and then turn up for interviews with an attitude, acting like they couldn't care less if they get the job. Then expect me to employ them and let them go and serve my customers with an attitude, no thank you.'

I'm sure there are plenty of prospective employees that are like this, but there are just as many employers (not saying that it includes you) who don't even bother to return a phone call, acknowledge an application or (and this is the one I still can't believe) don't even bother calling to tell you whether you've been successful at interviews. And I don't think a disclaimer on the application form that they 'are unable' to do so vindicates them at all. After the effort most people go to for an interview (travelling, perhaps new clothes, getting nervous, arse licking someone or their company) I don't think a 20 second phone call is EVER too much to ask.

I can see why you don't like the idea of people being handed money for doing nothing, but I think you have some misconceptions about what being on JSA is like. Sure there are some that play the system, but there are plenty that don't. Why penalise them? I was on JSA for 3 months, and I can tell you, it's bloody miserable. I went to quite a few interviews, and was eventually successful. But I can absolutely assure you that it is NOT easy to get a job, especially if you have no qualifications (as I didn't at the time). I was quite the opposite of 'picky' I applied for anything I could do, but that immediately put the great majority of jobs out of my reach. I had no qualifications, experience, and I couldn't drive. I never turned a job (or even an application) down for any reason.

In the three months, I did two weeks temping on a cleaning job. I had to start at half six, six mornings a week, only to do 2 hours work. And it was really hard work, too. All this, and i got about £10 per week more than JSA was paying me. When factoring in travel costs, I actually got less, so don't you dare tell me I was lazy and didn't want to work.

kualalump · 22/09/2007 20:16

There are probably Mumsnet members who are knowledgeable about immigration and who could have contributed to a proper discussion on the subject but who have been put off by the low level of posts on this thread. They will, in any case, have been put off by the aggressively-worded, non-pc OP. Likewise, they probably wouldn't be seen dead on a thread about such a non-pc topic as immigration (cowards). As a result, I would doubt there has ever been more naive, biased, ridiculous, irrelevant, ill-informed clap-trap spouted on a thread about a political subject than on this particular thread. To my embarrassment, I include my posts in this category too as I don't have any real knowledge on which to base my opinions.

The level of discussion here has been about on a par with 'I've got a friend who's a Pakistani' on a thread about racism. And a debate about immigration is not the same as a debate about racism despite what the majority here seem to think, trotting off pat opinions.

It seems obvious that, as a country, we do benefit from immigration. Some of the immigrants who come here have no intention of staying (good thing or bad?), some of them have no intention of learning the language but many do, some of them receive benefits, which we may or may not believe they should be entitled to. Despite what people seem to believe, some of them may end up benefiting from the taxes they have paid here and may be able to claim a British pension in the future or to have the money transfered into their pension in their own country via the EU.

I find the tax credit thing weird because it is worked out based on your household. If a Polish builder (as an example) is sleeping in a house with eleven other builders while working on a job, surely that is his household, not his family at home? Whatever, they are contributing to our economy, whether doing jobs that nobody else wants to do or doing jobs for which there is fierce contention from native British candidates.

Likewise, I'm sure we are benefiting from this latest wave of immigration on a cultural level or will in time. As some of you have pointed out, we're all immigrants in a sense because Britain has seen wave of wave of immigration over thousands of years.

Prejudice and panic is stirred up by inflammatory headlines such as those you might see in the Daily Mail. But, with this current EU wave of immigration, no-one in authority seems to have any reliable information about the true numbers coming in, where they are, what they are doing, etc.. This suggests that the government does not have real control of the situation and is just letting it muddle on by itself in the hope that it will be self-balancing, I presume. (Why do we bother having nationalities, passports, national borders, etc. - according to you lot we are all world citizens!) I think the consensus among the powerful is that if the economy is benefiting in the short term and maybe the longer term, then that is all that matters. This is fine but you can then see why you end up with police leaders, etc., complaining about lack of resources and increasing chaos.

Also, the government seemed fine about a lot of hard-working, skilled Polish immigrants but are now talking about restricting those from other new countries joining the EU (those further East). (Are immigrants from these countries less desirable? Is that view racist?) If so, perhaps the British government isn't as egalitarian and altruistic as some of you seem to believe. Is Britain allowed to discriminate between immigrants from different EU countries? Is Britain allowed to impose a quota system, as I believe other countries do, maybe including some in Europe? Obviously, other countries such as America and Australia have very strict entry requirements. Apparently Australia gives British people extra points because they already speak English. For cultural and economic reasons, the British government seems keen that new immigrants learn English. This makes obvious sense.

Anyway, I could waffle on but I'm not going to (post) any more because I think this whole thread has (with the exception of a few posts, not necessarily mine) been a waste of time and has had a nasty aggressive atmosphere from beginning to end and from both ends of the political spectrum. I suppose I should go and research the topic properly on the web but I'm just going to watch telly instead. Ignorance rules (especially on this thread).

Backtobasics · 22/09/2007 20:21

Ladylush, that is a really stupid thing to say "can't you go else where for your shopping". It's such a stupid solution. In my shop, my customers come first and if my customers aren't happy with the service or anything for that matter i do my absolute best to sort the problem out. If i had your 'go else where' attitude, i wouldn't be in business.

So i think it is the supermarkets job to make sure they employ staff who know what the product is they are selling and if they don't to make sure they understand what the customer is saying when they query something. It is very poor service if you have staff who are not trained properly and don't understand the customers.

So no i won't 'go else where' because well, why should i have to just because Asda choose to employ people who don't speak barely speak English just for cheap labour.

Difers · 22/09/2007 20:48

I also am frustrated by this thread, I am annoyed with myself for ranting and sounding ignorant about this subject when I am not at all ignorant about this subject.

I do however come from the veiw point of working in the public sector, in an organisation that just can't cope with the level of immigration and from experience that is skewed in the sense that I only see people who come to the public sector to access services. I do know who is getting priority for housing and services and who isn't and I do know what benefits people are getting or not getting so I do have an idea of how much immigration is costing local councils. So when I hear that all migration is good I feel I have to say "yes... but..."

Also some information on this thread is utter bollocks, check out actual popluation growth on this link www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=6 In the last 30 years the population of this country has grown by 5 million people.

Now, thatcher sold a few council houses off but she didn't sell that many and I know of one fund manager so who is really fueling the housing crisis, city fund managers or the level of immigration????

Is it any wonder that public services are stretched and that we are on this bizarre threadmill of poaching staff from other countries?

I don't think I will post again on this thread but I just want to make people think rather than blindly accept what is being told to us!

MissM · 22/09/2007 20:55

This is a bizarre thread. Is it just an excuse for some narrow-minded racism? What exactly is the OP trying to say, other than 'I read the Daily Mail'? Would it be the same problem if someone British went to live in another country and sent money home to their parents in England? Or is that way round ok cos we're British don't you know and civilised . (Although, by the way, when my brother went travelling he lived in a house in Amsterdam containing fifteen Europeans working on a tulip farm). As far as I'm concerned this thread is just one step removed from the racist I encountered on the bus who told me that 'all foreigners are the same - rude and ill-mannered'. She meant me, because I happen to have olivey skin (I'm Jewish) and brown eyes.

mytwopenceworth · 22/09/2007 21:09

"This is a bizarre thread. Is it just an excuse for some narrow-minded racism?"

erm, not from me it's not. nor about, ooo, 95% of the other people posting on it.

StripeyKnickersSpottySocks · 22/09/2007 21:42

Can I jus point out if it wasn't for the Polish we may well have lost WWII. So for that fact only I think they should be able to come and stay.

Apart from the Polish gentleman who stripped all the houses in my mate's street of the lead from the bay window rooves. But I'm sure he's a one off.

The rest of the Latvians, Poles, etc I meet all work very hard doing awful jobs for crappy wages. Filleting chickens, picking cauliflowers, etc. They're prepared to do it while other Brits are happy to sit at home claiming benefits.

Plus in my town our hospital as just been granted more funding due to a increase in the birthrate of 1500 a year, mainly due to immigrants. So although this will cost taxpayers more money, on a personal note it gives me more chance of gettig a job when I qualify i na few months.

2shoes · 22/09/2007 21:50

wasn't going to post on ths thread again .but
sure easy answer. pay all workers the going rate where ever they come from. why should one person be paid less just because they weren't born in this country. so If all (for example) builders were paid the same then it would be down to skill and things like that not the fact that some poor bloke will work for less and live 5 to a room,
as for people getting child benefit abroad. think what they have to give up. the dad has to work over here for a year to claim. can't be easy for them.