Rather terrifying article about social workers attempting to take baby from its mother as soon as its born.

[Callisto]

It was in the Sunday Telegraph which I got round to reading last night. The story plus a couple of related articles is here: www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/26/nbaby126.xml

And if MN delete it, please CAT me and I'll email you a copy

well they clearly have no right to publish Fran's medical history. And they seem much more interested in self righteousness than anything else. Surely one can get an injunction?

I looked at that blog and I have to say if that's represenative of social workers they're not a particularly impressive group - bit strong on self-righteousness and weak on logic.
And I read broadsheets.

Well, here is a link to the story as it actually appeared:

www.communitycare.co.uk/Articles/2007/09/20/105839/fran-lyon-case-the-hidden-agendas.html

As far as I can see there's no new information there.

I find the tone rather unpleasant. The constant reference to Fran as "Lyon" and the veiled sniping at John Hemming do nothing to improve my opinion of the social work profession if this magazine is its voice.

MM

Oh, forgot to say. The original blog entry has now disappeared.

Interesting.

MM

I don't think calling her 'Lyon' at second mention is sniping, it's just their house style. Like the Guardian. First mention full name and title, second mention surname only.

You can still access the original, snide article through the google cache

Some very interesting comments there. I have a history of clinical depression and have now resolved to 1. avoid having any future episodes on my medical records and to 2. Leave the UK at the first suggestion of involvement from SS

I always wondered why anyone would buy ADs over the internet, I guess this explains it.

If you want to see a real grass roots revolution against social services at work, take the time to look at www.cyfswatch.org/index.php; a NZ based site that initially included a lot of controversial information about individual cases and workers (sadly, some of it fairly immature and defamatory), but after some unsuccessful attempts by the government agencies involved to close it down, it appears to still be going strong.

Bump for this thread to go with the other one- Fran any updates??

Have been following the discussion intently but all postings seem to have gone quiet, has this gone to another thread or have we moved on t the next story in the papers? Am so scared for Fran, she is a lovely girl, I used to babysit her when she was litle and desperately want to keep fighting for her in any way but don't want to cause trouble for her in any way. What if anything can any of us do?

Yetou - there is another thread in this section where some posters who have been professionally involved in cases where babies are taken from their mothers are extremely defensive of the system.

There are some suggestions lower down the thread of ways to get involved and help.

Hi upwind, I think you'll find that a lot of the professional are not so much 'defensive of the system', rather more, because they 'know' the system, they are suggesting that in the particular case which is under discussion here, none of us know the full and true facts, and questions regarding Fran's abilities to safely care for her baby are still open to further enquiry, which can only happen once her baby is born.

'Professionals' will of necessity view the situation from a slightly different viewpoint than 'interested onlookers'! They will have their training and experience, not just their emotions with which to make comments.

It doesn't mean anyone is right or wrong, be it Fran or professionals, it means a cause for concern has been identified which necessitates further enquiries.

Promised myself I wouldn't post on topic again....

just saw this in the papers and on GMTV the other week, How terrifying!

I (like the woman involved) have a nasty record of mental health in my 20's including several sucide attempts and loads of self harm. I'm fine now. She came across as a lovely person on the TV. what the hell are they doing taking the baby the moment it's born. She seems a lot smarter than most people. Hope it doesn't end in tears .

Nonametoday, what do you think of the story of the woman who was threatened with having her children taken from her because a paediatrician diagnosed her with "Muchausens Syndrome by Animal Proxy"? How does that fit in with your knowledge of the system?

Also how do you know that we don't know the full facts? That seems like a jump. It's perfectly possible that Fran Lyon has told the full story or it's as least as likely as that she has kept something back. You're making an assumption that there is more to know when it might be that there isn't. Certainly it was Hexham social services who were quoted as saying that the baby was at risk because they thought she might develop MSbP. I've never heard of any other situation where people's behaviour is predicted before it has happened, particularly with regards to the legal system. Otherwise we'd be locking up potential burlglars, rapists etc. Although like I said, removing someone's child is a lot worse than a prison sentence.

I believe Fran deserves an opportunity to show everyone they are wrong - everyone deserves that chance. However, it is important to remember that nobody knows the details in this case. I work on a regular basis with families where the children suffer because of the adults around them. Social Services are not rushing to take the children in these families into care - nor any other babies which come along (who would be easy to place with adoptive families). The bottom line is that they don't take these actions lightly and we don't know the background to this case beyond waht Fran herself has said openly.
I so hope she gets the opportunity to prove herself as a Mum.

Elizabetth, I appreciate that you are as entitled to your view as anyone else, however you do seem to be somewhat 'obsessed' with the MBPS., and do not appear to have an open mind.

You have castigated the social services and anyone who in anyway disagrees with your very intense and diligent research into this area.

I have been very open and honest regarding my involvement with similar situations.

You, I feel have an agenda which you are not disclosing.

I do not deny your right to argue a point but I do question your involvement.

Still throwing out the smears NoNameToday? Is that really the best you can do? I've told you my involvement, an observer who was shocked that something like this was going on in the family courts. It's a gross injustice.

Your involvement here seems to be that you have taken newborn babies from their mothers (correct me if I'm wrong). I'm not surprised you are defending the social work/paeditrician position quite so vociferously. It would be very difficult to live with if you thought what you had done had been a mistake.

It's sad that you don't think anybody could take an interest in this without having a hidden agenda. It would be much easier to have a discussion if you could lay the smear tactics to one side and just answer my questions - what do you think about a woman who was threatened with losing her children because of a "diagnosis" of Munchausens Syndrome by Animal Proxy?

Er I don;t think Elizabetth seems obsessed or appears not to have an open mind. Posting on this thread and having views doesn't indicate obsession.

NNT, have you taken newborn babies from their mothers?

(and not suggestion that the fact that you have means you are wrong/your arguments aren't valid but it does have a bearing really here doesn't it?)

"Er I don;t think Elizabetth seems obsessed or appears not to have an open mind. Posting on this thread and having views doesn't indicate obsession."

Thanks WWW.

I think I said earlier that this is what women face when they question the system or refuse to take "experts" opinions as gospel. Smears, insults, innuendo, a continuum that goes all the way for some women to having their children removed.

I think nonametoday's reactions (and some of the others here) are good examples (if mild ones) of the attitudes that people like Fran Lyons face. Nonametoday has convinced herself that my criticisms of this case and the system in general couldn't just be based on an understanding of the facts and a moral reaction to them, she has to believe that I have a hidden agenda and thus am a "bad" person who can be dismissed.

Not smears elizabetth, just my honest opinion of what you appear to be trying to promote/gain from these threads, and my belief that you have a peronal agenda involving the MBPS diagnosis and are ultimately hijacking the thread regarding Fran.

I have at no time commented upon the diagnosis, its accuracy or not as the case may be. I presumably know less than you, although aware of it,I haven't researched it, it has not been my remit.

You appear to have researched MSBP to an extensive degree, and do not appear able or prepared to comment without the mention of the same.

Not all causes for concern involve this ''diagnosis', therefore why expect every professional be they social worker, doctor, health visitor, midwife, to justify your argument, they may never have worked with a case.

You appear from your postings to have an extremely poor opinion of any professional involved in the Social Services and the NHS.

Saying I have a personal agenda when I don't is a smear, nonametoday. I'm sorry you are unable to grasp that.

I have a poor opinion of people who still uphold the MSbP diagnosis, long after it and its creator has been discredited. As it is central to what Fran Lyon is experiencing at the moment it's difficult not to talk about it no matter how hard you try to persuade me that I should with your attacks. And I'm not talking about "all cases" and never have been, I'm talking about the scandal, and it is a scandal of all the parents who have had their children removed on this diagnosis.

As for having a poor opinion of anyone involved in the Social Services or NHS, once again that's what I mean by taking the criticisms personally. Instead of examining the substance of them and responding to that you make a global claim that has nothing to do with my position and once again is just an attempt to smear me.

I'll take it from your silence on the matter that you have removed babies from their mothers under an MSBP diagnosis. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Elizabetth, I do not think you are a bad person, I do not know you.

I questioned what I have seen written and vehemence regarding it, there has been no doubt of your lack of impartiality, despite you being as you say merely an interseted and concerned onlooker.

You appear to apply that thinking to anyone involved with these situations.

The medical profession makes mistakes, as do the social services, nurses, midwives etc but not without severe repercussions for most people who have been negligent, whether by design or lack of due care.

Many people in other professions make mistakes but with less devastating consequences.

In most instances my knowledge of the mistakes is, like yourself, gleaned from research articles and less often newspaper articles.

If you know more about Fran's case then why not say so?

If you know less, then why is your opinion more valid than anyone elses?

That is my point.

According to yourself you do not know and I know I do not know.

We are both entitled to our opinion,we can question each others opinion, I cannot and do not deny you yours but you seem to feel you can deny me mine.

Please do not read silence as an inability to answer, I have guests for dinner and I am off to the supermarket.