i find this unbeliveable - mand an son attacked as playign cricket

[FluffyMummy123]

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My fathers been teaching in state schools for 30 years and has found the attitude of many parents has changed over that time. Aggressive, always backing their children without even listening as to why they might be in trouble at school.

In one recent case the (middle class) parents were brought in because their son was being rude and obnoxious to teachers. The response - they were pleased because he used to be shy and is now "asserting" himself. No remorse for the poor teachers that have to put up with the little git.

so, on the one hand we have an airline throwing a woman off a plane because her child is talking, here and on the other we have children behaving incredibly badly in our schools and parks and public places and no-one prepared to tell them off, prosecute them or make them do national service/prison time. Hmm.

I don't think other European countries have the same problems as here for three reasons

• the kids are more part of the community, less age specific segregation, more eating together with family etc
• other adults feel able to take them to task if they misbehave without risking a criminal record
• the human rights legislation was never taken literally anywhere else

When I was 15 or 16 - so a good 14-15 years ago - I went running in a park and was shouted at, chased, grabbed and pushed into bushes by two boys of about 9 or 10 at the oldest. So it's not a very 'new' phenomenon. Awful all the same.

(Sorry, was not comparing 'my' incident in seriousness with the OP - not at all - just citing an example of these 'random acts of violence')

difference is, these days they might have pushed you in a bush then knifed you.

Schools have practically no real sanctions that they can use on children of this type.

Parents repeatedly back their kids up, in the face of often overwhelming evidence of their wrongdoing.

I've seen very nice, kind MNetters raging against teachers who put their kid's names in the 'sad picture' on the wall. because doing that will upset the kids and scar them for life apparantly.

sometimes I am at a loss to know what we are supposed to do ith these sorts of kids.

SIL is a primary teacher who has been told to 'fuck off you cunt' by a child in primary school.

recenetly a boy was excluded from a school for setting up a bebo website uging students to sign up if the 'hated' a teacher and wanted to 'kill her'. the governers of the school said the boy had a right to return to the school. Teachers and students threatened to strike if he did. What on earth is happeneing when you can threated a teacher like that, and not get expelled? What possible message did that send to the other kids?

This case is awful, the poor man and family. Low-level misbehaviour by youths has always been with us but what has changed, imo, is that there's no sense of shame about it, nowadays and it's always someone else's fault.

Ds1 is studying for a PhD is history and he reckons that, in past times, wars acted as a means of controlling young men. The sort of youths who lurk on our streets today would have been the ones who'd have been out there in the thick of it, with cross-bows and hatchets. But now we have professional forces who don't want that sort of person in their midst.

What the answer is, I don't know. Maybe we need a Cod-style bootcamp, which they wouldn't be keen to return to? Financial penalties, such as taking away Benefit? But then they'd turn to stealing, I suppose.

Yeah, I think that's probably the exact word they would have used, www. But there were lots of nice kids and 'right-minded' parents in the park too - it's a shame we can't all get together and say to these people "this is not acceptable". But you're always frightened if you do intervene, you will be the only one. A friend of mine remonstrated with a couple of lads who were hassling a teenage girl on the train (she, my friend, was pregnant at the time) - they then started shouting abuse at her. Not one person stepped in to help - they just stuck their noses in their newspapers or turned the volume on their ipods up. There are more of us than there are of them - but how do we make that work to our advantage?

I was walking home down my street one evening when a lad of about 15 rode past on his bike and grabbed my bottom and said some sexual stuff before carrying on riding past..

..I got in and told my then boyfriend about it - I wasnt actually upset but just couldnt believe the gall of the lad..anyway, at that moment he rode up the street again, and my boyfriend went out, asked if he had done what he did and when he smirking said yes, my boyfriend hit him, knocking him off his bike.

I watched all this, horrified, from the window, I had no clue that my boyfriend would physically have a go and just thought he was going to have a word with him.

I didnt agree with what he did for one minute. the lad never did it again though. What I'm saying is there must be a happy medium and decent deterrent between hoping quietly that thuggish types would please stop it and not intimidate us and a clear though over the top message that there will be repercussions for their actions. And yes, my boyfriend behaved thuggishly I know. I didnt condone it, in fact I felt sick and wished I'd never mentioned it, but that begs the question, why shouldnt I mention it?

ASo it's fear in a lot of cases that stops us doing anything isn't it? A man driving too fast nearly knocked me, ds, dh and baby dd over in a country lane a couple of years ago. I threw up my hands in a 'hey, watch it' expression and he SCREECHED to a halt, reversed, FAST, leant out of his window and SCREAMED at me "I pay my taxes, fuck off"

Ok, I wasn't necessarily expecting an apology but still, it was naked aggression.

This is referred to as pack behavior. I recently saw a special on dateline or 60 minutes( I can't remember). Anyway, children do things they normally would never do when they are with other children.

So what are these children afraid of? What WOULD stop them? MB, that's awful, in primary school as well.

Am in Germany and (just to go back to Upwind's post) there are a fair few of the same problems, although I've never personally had a really bad experience. And IMO and E the big problem is indeed people not wanting to get involved. There are some areas of east Germany which have big problems with young neo-Nazis, and time and again there are reports of incidents of violence against foreigners in full trains and buses where nobody stepped in to help. Once dh saw some boys (prob about 12 or 13, dressed in a skinhead-type way) vandalising in a park, told them to stop it, was chased, spat on and nearly assaulted. He ran off, got on a tram and asked the driver to call the police - he refused . There is a serious clture of looking the other way, although I'm reluctant to view it as a German thing as such (although some Germany-specific factors definitely do influence it). What it has in common with Britain is the leniency of the youth justice system - in fact Germany is more lenient by far - and the fact that many parents appear frightened of disciplining their children.

I know too many parents who won't or can't discipline their under-10s - how on earth will they manage teenagers if they can't face a sweets-at-the-checkout-tantrum.

Society seems more aggressive and selfish than before - so is it chicken or egg that laughing at people and demonising them is a huge media pastime at the moment? Big Brother and other such reality programmes are not nice. They are not 'interesting social experiments', they are presenting the public with a variety of misfits to jeer at. If parents are seen reading a 'newspaper' that revels in calling a women 'the pig', what message are they giving their children on how to treat other people?

Shit, I sound like a mad Tory tweed-arse.

It's all very worrying. In the Sunday Times last weekend there was a little piece saying that 44% of British teenagers had been in a fight in the last year, as opp. to something like 5% of Italian teens and a similarly low percentage of French teens.

Words fail me...

I felt sick hearing this on the radio today, it is indescribably (is that a word?) awful.

I live near-ish here. Don't know that particular leisure centre but about a mile down the road are some public cricket nets much loved by my son and his friends.

He has been practising cricket there since he was 10. The other players - a big mix of ages (up to adult)and races - are always welcoming and there has never been any violence to my knowledge - some vandalism and theft but no mugging etc.

I read the news in our local paper last year with alarm and sadness as it's so far away from the experience of my son and his friends.

Sadly my son encountered some trouble in a local park recently when an older teenager intimidated him and stole his mobile phone. I know bad things can and do happen.

However, I just wanted to say that there are lots of youths happily and peacefully practising cricket in this same locality.

It all went wrong when schools were not allowed to punish pupils who misbehaved.
We used to have a Welsh language teacher at our Cardiff school and his favourite punishement for kigs who did not listen was to pull the hair behind the kids ear until they said "sorry sir, won't do it again sir".
We used to call him "Bobo" as he would stand for no noncense.
Whilst he was at school it was great, could actually get on with learning.
We also had streaming in our school where all the low achievers were in the lower sets and the most able pupils were grouped together so we all got to benefit.
My best friend at the time was in the lower stream and she left with no qualifications and went onto a YTS course to work at a major supermarket and she is still there almost 20yrs later and has never wanted to become a supervisor or manager.
Maybe it was good changing this streaming system to try and get these kids to achieve more, but i just think now that they are dragging everyone down.
No wonder people want their kids to go to private schools.
There is no respect for parents or schools, kids only seems to respect their peers and what do they know of the world?
AB

I posted a few weeks ago after I had a huge go at a bunch of teenagers throwing bottles around in our local playground.

The little bastards buggered off in fear and none of them said anything in their defence - they couldn't, and I was talking their language (yes, I gave them a foul-mouthed rant, only language they understand). They haven't been back since. I'm a very small woman and I had an 18 month old child with me, nobody else. They could have had me if they'd had the inclination but I think they were just too shocked. Perhaps nobody had stood up to them before.

I know there's a risk when we stand up to people but the thing is, that's the only thing that will keep the little shits in line. The police can't do it on their own. The courts can't do it on their own. Only communities can do it, with support from these people.

It would be nice if communities got more support from the authorities but I'm not holding my breath. But I also think we can play our part by just getting to know our neighbours, talking to local people, using local shops - trying to get back a semblance of 'community', rather than letting the Fear keep us in our homes. A lot of positive things would follow that.

Oh look, a flying pig.

ripeberry that's bollox as far as i'm concerned. i was never beaten or punished physically in school and i never got involved in the sort of anti-social behaviour and criminal activity that has been discussed in this thread.

whiskeyandbeer - did you go to school on a sink estate?

And how old are you? My MIL is a teacher and often talks about how things have deteriorated in recent years. There are effectively no sanctions against physical and emotionally abusive pupils.

physically abusive that is

no i didn't i went to a private school. but my point is that the reason pupils aren't afraid of teachers anymore isn't because they aren't allowed to hit them anymore. i firmly believe (while i admit a professional ignorance on the subject so am open to contradiction) the reason they are not afraid of teachers is because punishment in school does not translate to punishment at home. i think it is the pupils who's parents don't take getting in trouble in school seriously who cause this casual attitude. if i got in trouble in school i certainly wasn't scared of the teachers or principles as i didn't really care about them, what i was worried first and foremost about was the bollicking (never a beating) i would get when i got home from my mum or dad.and how i would then get punished at home aswell (playstation taken off/not allowed out at the weekend etc).
so while i accept it is degenerating horribly i think it is more down to the parents than lack of corporal punishment.
but as i say my opinions are totally self generated and personalised/anectdotle etc and i have no qualifications/study of the area so i would welcome information to the contrary to expand my knowledge on the subject.