i find this unbeliveable - mand an son attacked as playign cricket

[FluffyMummy123]

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Definitely agree that the leniency has to end (but wont), but harsher punishments alone cant undo whatever is going wrong with these kids. sadly.

Well, it's a start, unfortunately. Fact is: teaching kids right from wrong, discipline and boundaries is hard work AND you as the parent have to follow the line, too.

But a lot of people just can't be arsed with that nowadays.

So, as my dad said, 'If parents aren't willing to teach it at home, then government has an obligation to the society it's supposed to protect to do it as it sees fit.'

Kezzag, yes, I agree, scary. I do think it's frighening when some children think it's OK to behave like this.

I'm also lifelong Guardianista pinko but the older I get the more I think they need something that in olden days would have been called a short sharp shock. I don't mean National Service, I'm not quite that radical but I'd also be interested to see what happens in this case.

Whats even more scary is that these kids are clearly parented badly and this is the result.

Wtf are their kids going to be like?

Horiffic crime
Something definatley needs doing in this country about the levels of increasing violence, particularly amongst children.....Orm your on the right lines there, it seems somewhere amongst the 80's/90's things went very wrong and produced todays teenagers

You might have a point OrmIrian.

trouble is, it is only in certain areas though, not the whole country is like this?
A friend of mine whose an educational psyc, pointed out that in some schools in Bristol, they let the kids out in seperate groups at breaktime in caged off areas of the playground/school grounds......that to me is very wrong...but its the only way they can stop the kids killing each other

Cod, I think i think tis cos english people are too feckin scared of the consequences of challenging the actions of other people

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Things are never what they seem, on the face of it this is a completely senseless killing. I bet if you asked these kids honestly though they would never have imagined they would go out that day and kill a man!!

This poor guy has died, but I do bet there is more to it than what the papers have made, not that that excuses in any way what has happened.

had to guffaw at the notion of a Thatcher needed to solve this problem....it was her IMO, that led to a decadence in social morals ("no such thing as community" remember?) that facilitates stuff like this..not her totally, but encouraging a nasty, lack-of-investment/hope environment.

Ifthere's one political icon, I'd have Tony Benn every time.

I wonder if and how these kids would justify what they did. Most first time criminals find a way to satisfy their own consciences with regard to what they have done. "I needed the money", "It's not a real crime, these big shops are all insured", "I was provoked" even some paedophiles tell themselves that they love the children they abuse. How would these children do it? Or would they? If they can commit a murder amorally that is even more worrying isn't it? My children have a very strong sense of right and wrong - a bit skewed sometimes perhaps but it's there.

And therein lies part of the problem!

'Oh, it probably isn't as bad as all that.'

Someone is DEAD. They threw rocks and sticks and abused someone who was minding his own business in a park.

FFS.

The man died of a heart attack, not from getting stones thrown at him. Here lies the problem.

My SIL's husband died because he was punched. Something you could 9 times out of ten walk away from but when he hit the floor he fractured his skull.

Those boys threw stones etc, but im sure that they didnt for one second think they would kill the man.

Please dont think i am defending them either by the way, abuse of that from regardless of the out come is inexcusable

This sort of stuff makes me feel physically sick.

I agree with others-it's the lack of empathy with other human beings that's so terrifying. Hurting people for 'laughs'.

Makes me scared for my dd growing up.

"The man died of a heart attack, not from getting stones thrown at him. Here lies the problem"

not really. the law works on a chain of causation basis. if you punch someone and they crack their head on the concrete BUT FOR you punching them they would be alive.
attackers take their victims as they find them and the fact that they did not know or attempt to find out if the man had a history of heart attacks before throwing stones at him is their fault not his.
so if it can be proven that the heart attack was brought on by the stones and missiles thrown at him then they are just as responsible.

So why did my SIL husbands attacker walk............because he had what they term "eggshell skull" something his attacker could not have forseen.

These kids would have no idea that this guy would suffer a heart attack.

im not disagreeing with anyone, I think this is awful, Im just saying what i think

I truly wish there was a pm brave enough to take a zero tolerance stance on this kind of stuff.

Bring back national service, thats what I say (channelling alf garnett here..)

I think that kids such as this, instead of being given asbo's should be put into the forces to learn the discipline which they're clearly lacking from their home environment.

And I speak as someone who has worked very closely with children such as these and do you know what?

After they've finished rabbiting on about wanting 'respect' and all that bravado crap they generally talk about wanting and needing guidance.

i suspect we are seeing an example of the difference between 'responsibility' and 'culpability'..they are responsible for attacking him, but the culpability for a death is less clear.

"So why did my SIL husbands attacker walk............because he had what they term "eggshell skull" something his attacker could not have forseen."

really,i'm truely shocked by the fact that such a defence was accepted let alone allowed. are you in england?
i don't think you would have had the same result in ireland.

stoppinattwo you may be right in this case, but there have been other cases where teenagers plainly knew that they were killing someone (am thinking of a case of a student who was thrown from a bridge a while ago, and htere have been others two

I wonder if restorative justice (is that the phrase?) should be used more- where the criminals have to face up to their victim/victim's family. If they see the effects of their actions head-on it may actually engender a sense of shame and remorse which would be a start.

(sorry got a bit incoherent there!)

should say

others too)

I think that national service or equivalent as a punishment, is a good idea as there is a definite lack of consequences for young people atm.
If their parents don't teach them empathy or morality and they are left to go feral and learn life lessons from MTV and XBOx's how are they supposed to learn and rehabilitation won't work because they have no referance points. Kids like this need discipline and respect and one way of instilling it in them is unfortunately through fear.
They have no fear of being incarcerated but they may well have a fear of being turfed out of bed at 6am to run a couple of miles. this too could lead to useful skills that they could build a life and claw back some self esteem and break the cycle of being a useless dangerous member of society.

agree and also gets them off the street. These kids have pent-up energy and that can turn into agression very quickly especially if their being fed violent images in video games I mean come on, in my day it was space invaders and pacman - now you can virtually rip someone's head off for 'fun'.

Anyone who says this has no detrimental effects on developing conscious is either very blinkered or making money from this stuff.