EU Constitution - god or bad idea?

[Eleusis]

Do you think the UK should shift greater or fewer powers to a central EU government?

Discuss....

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6223244.stm

Constitution - good. Something that we can use to make the others play fair. Thats why the French voted No to it, they prefere to keep things vague.

I think there should be a constitution spelling out the rules. But I don't want one that gives even more power to Europe. It's hard enough to exert any pressure on our own politicians, no hope of Brussels bureacrats responding to us so-called citizens. (Citzen implies some level of democracy, not a lot of that in the European insitutions.)

Atm looks like typical EU horse trading and skullduggery, doing their best to bring back the constitution under another name, hoping the people of Europe are too dim or jaded to notice or care.

But, isn't the whole idea to give more power to Europe? I would think if you oppose that then you oppose the constitution.

a constitution doesn't have to involve giving more power to the EU, and the news item you've linked to is over the latest batch of negotiations, not the constitution.

a constitution would be a good thing: a set of rules that are difficult to change, that would essentially let everyone know where they stand. But we're not there yet. The French voted down the last set of proposals because they were "too British" (there was too much about market freedoms etc).

what europe needs is a good frank discussion without all "the more power to the eu" / "more votes for us" paranoia that usually accompanies anything EU related..

The less power we give to an unelected EU the better. I see no value in it whatsoever.

1. it isn';t unelected

2. the amount of power the EU has is in fact unrelated to the idea of a constitution 3. the EU has brought us: holiday pay for all; rights for workers after a year rather than 2; much stricter environmental laws than we had before; the opportunity to live in another country without the hassle. It does also have atendency to over-legislate but that is not an inherent part of the EU.

I disagree with figleave. I don't think we can make the others play fair. EU Constitution won't change that. The French and the Italians are notoriously well known for taking what they like from it and ... sticking their fingers up and not complying to the bits that don't suit them.
So this will change nothing.
It would be nice if Britain could grow a SPINE.

There is more than a little unfairness (or is it xenophobia?) on display here.

the French take what they want do they? what about Britain's consistent refusal to sign up to any EU law to do with immigration, asylum, taxation and, until 10 years ago, workers' rights? There are also a number of other areas with which the UK doesn't comply - notably the environmental directives.

I think the only thing on that list I'm really convinced is a good thing is the freedon to move around within the EU.

Eleusis - we still don't have true freedom to move around and live and work in other EU countries, since you cannot accrue full social security and pension contributions in one country and move them to another.

Freudian slip in the title?????.....

HA! Didn't even notice my typo in the title. Definately not a Freudian slip as I'm not in favour of an EU constitution.

Anna- yes, that's true, I was just conceeding that one point as something I regard as beneficial. And, it goes even further since not all EU members are really free to move wherever they like (i.e. restrictions on the ascention countries). And, being American, none of this really applies to me.

Eleusis - freedom of movement of people was one of the earliest advantages of joining the EU (EC as it was) and I think it is problematical that it hasn't evolved to ensure that people who do move get proper social protection. I should like that to be addressed, and improved. That seems to me a worthy cause for the EU.

anna888 - yes you can. the only thing you can't do as far as i know is jack in a job and go and live in another country to claim benefits. but then you can't do that within the same country.

SenoraPostrophe - have you tried????????????? (says she who has)

I haven't bothered getting my NI contributions moved to Spain, but I'm going to get my Spanish contributions moved to the UK.

I know people who've had benefits transferred to Spain too, but I know in most areas you do need to actually get a job before you can use the Spanish healthcare system. But remeber that actually not all Spaniards qualify for free healthcare here - the system is different.

Anna, how do you define "proper social protection"? I must admit, I know very little about these things since the only countries I've ever lived and worked in ar the US and the UK. And as a resident of the UK, and a citizen of the US, I don't hink I have any rights to work in another EU country.

Basically, when you move around, you get the social minima of the host country when you get a job (or claim benefits - you are allowed to move to another EU country and job search for 3 months if you have lost your job in anothe EU country).

But if you have made contributions above and beyond the minimum in one country (ie pension, private healthcare, unemployment insurance etc) these are not easily transferable and in many cases not transferable at all.

So you can end up with, say, pension contributions in 6 different countries, none of which you can consolidate and will not provide proper cover in old age whereas the same amount in one country could provide a decent pension.

ah, you see I've only ever paid the minimum so that doesn't affect me.

they're not easily transferable, no, but then that would only be the case if we had a unified social security system. and I can't see the tabloids going for that.

Or there could be special provision for itinerant workers who would pay into a special EU private healthcare / pension pot and be dispensed of contributing to the local system.

There is now special legislation to cover divorce between EU nationals / countries that supercedes national legislation. So this kind of arrangement is perfectly possible without the "tabloids" getting excited.

So, if I pay into my pension plan in the UK and then move to say Germany, would I not be able to draw on that pension when I live in Germany? What if it is a private pension? Surely I am allowed to take out my own money?

You can draw on it (providing you have contributed enough), but not easily consolidate it.

For people who work all their lives in one country and retire to another it is relatively straightforward. The problem is for people who work in several countries.

So why is that a problem, aside for the inconvenience of having to manage several accounts?

I'm not sure I like the idea of the EU governing my money. Don't really trust them. I don't know why. I guess I just reagrd big government as a bad thing. I think they tend to have too much power over the people.

But, this idea of an EU system to govern social security and pension benefits for all is byond the scope of the EU reform treaty proposal, is it not?

I wasn't suggesting the EU governing your money, just an alternative system for itinerant workers.

It's a problem if you can't consolidate and health/pension schemes have minimum contributions in number of years / amounts etc to get certain benefits (which they do).

mrs mulumba - the eu isn't unelected it's made up of the elected govts of the eu countries who meet to decide things.

wish there was more easy to understand info on what everything means. read an article in the guardian the other day that required you know what the constituion is all about - how many people know that!