Organ Donation Opt Out

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Just seen on the News that it is hoped organ donation will become 'Opt Out' rather than 'Opt In' by 2020, if the change in law gets through the final stage in the Autumn.
About time, IMO.
It was changed in Wales in 2015
Research shows that 80% of people would be happy to donate their organs, but currently only 37% have got round to signing up.

People who choose to, would still be able to register to 'opt out' , but this will hopefully mean more organs available for the 6000 currently on the waiting list.

It’s not real altruism since even ticking a box is meaningless unless you die in the right circumstances.

And for those who say relatives shouldn’t be able to overrule wishes to donate, that goes both ways and if your nok wish not to donate you should refuse on their behalf.

It should imo be one or the other. Either my wishes stand - if i have opted in or opted out that should be it - or my NoK's wishes stand. This whole 'make your intentions known but actually your family have final say' seems utterly pointless

I don’t disagree but this is why it is important for families to have the discussion prior to the event. Because there is surely nothing worse than being confronted A, with the realisation that your family member is going to die, and B, the question as to whether they would want their organs donated and having to admit that you don’t know.

I don’t know what the protocols are for donating your body to science, but I did have a family member who chose to do so, and his family were already informed as technically there wouldn’t be a funeral. However, his body was rejected and the family were left having to organise the funeral anyway even though the body was initially not released to them. Also, if you donate your body to science you get the remains back at some point when they’ve finished with them and you as NOK still have to arrange the funeral.

But imagine if you were unaware of the fact that your family member had donated their body to science and that you wouldn’t be getting it back and didn’t find out until the event of their death.

Organ donation would be very similar if the next of kin weren’t informed prior and were just told that the body was being taken now for organ donation.

So regardless of the NOK wishes the family conversation is still the most important element in all of this.

Organ donation would be very similar if the next of kin weren’t informed prior and were just told that the body was being taken now for organ donation.

Seeing as how organs need to be removed within 5 minutes of the heart stopping or while the heart is still beating, how do you see this working in practice?

It must be terribly difficult. Grief is so individual but personally, I'd find it incredibly hard to have to say my goodbyes while my loved one is still breathing, still alive, to not be able to spend time with them afterwards, hold their hand, talk to them, and leave them in my own time (within reason) and try and come to terms I'd be leaving the hospital without them. To think about what's happening to them at that moment in time, that they are on an operating table for the opposite reason why someone would normally be on one........wow......fucking hell...... I imagine for some that would be so difficult and I couldn't judge anyone for refusing donation even if it was what the person wanted.

I see that for some that might seem frivolous and not a good enough reason for allowing someone to die (apparently) but I don't think anyone has the right to judge someone else's grief personally, especially as I've seen how messed up someone can get if they are denied their grief process.

Diamonds I had no idea that they give the body back! My dad wants to donate his body to science and has made arrangements he says, the thought of having to arrange his funeral mo the after his death..........I'm not sure i could do that. Can I refuse consent for this do you know?

Surely you would have a 'ceremony' at the point of death and then when the remains of the remains are returned they are sent directly to the funeral director and the immediate family turn up for the burial or the remains are privately cremated. It doesn't seem that much of an issue to me.

X 100000

Re the retrieval process there is a Transplant Surgeon who is on record as saying people are not fully informed of the process

woolythoughts
The best thing to happen to organ donation would be to remove the requirement for relatives to consent.

So you would remove one of the main safeguards against malpractice for an opt out system.

Yes

If I have consented to my organs being taken whilst I'm alive, my NOK should not be able to override that.

My body, my choice.

They can't turn around (except in extreme circumstances) and override my will for my possesions so why should they be able to about what happens to my body.

If I havent bothered opting out in an opt out system, I clearly don't care strongly enough to be bothered or I want them to be used, so again, why should they over ride my wishes.

They can't turn around (except in extreme circumstances) and override my will for my possesions so why should they be able to about what happens to my body.

There's no property in a dead body. Not sure if it's by convention or by statute.

So imagine that you’ve just been told that your loved one is brain dead and that they will be switching off the machines. And imagine being told in the same breath that no, you cannot stay with them as their heart stops because they will be wheeled away to theatre for their organs to be harvested (and yes, that is the term they use) as they chose to be organ donors, something which you were unaware of. So you get to say goodbye to a person who to you still looks alive. Their heart is beating, their skin is still warm, and they are then taken away.

There are people on this very thread who have been through the trauma of donating a loved one’s organs through their own choice and who found that process so traumatic that they would never do it again. Think about that.

And then think about whether you really believe that a recipient would be grateful for the organs they receive knowing that that donor was ripped away from their loved one regardless of how that loved one felt about wanting to be there. Do you really think that recipient is grateful at all costs? Really?

Because of all the recipients I know and know of they all, without exception, talk about receiving their “gift,” and I don’t imagine any one of them would feel so thankful if that organ was given to them under duress.

I am likely to need an organ transplant at some point in my future. And the one thing which makes me uncomfortable about that is the fact that in order to receive that organ, another individual has to die, and another family has to be left grief-stricken. Waiting for the call to receive an organ means waiting to be told that someone has died and that you will be benefiting from their death. There is no way I would want that benefit to come at the cost of a grieving family who are the ones left behind. They are the selfless ones, not the donor. Because the donor is dead. They are the ones left to pick up the pieces of their lives, to potentialy deal with children left behind, with parents, having to say goodbye to their own child.

So for the people saying that if you watch a loved one dying because of lack of an organ, that death is no different to watching your family member dying because of a road accident, or stroke or whatever. The one does not cancel out the other, and the grief is no less real on one side than the other.

woolythoughts
Yes

If I have consented to my organs being taken whilst I'm alive, my NOK should not be able to override that.

My body, my choice.

A couple of things from this. Under the new proposed system, If people haven't consented it only takes a slip of a finger (so to speak) for whoever is in charge to negate your preference. Especially if they don't have to check with relatives.

It has already happened under the current system and what was the response then will be the response in the future. It will be the standard "lessons have been learnt"

As for "my body, my choice" that is what is being discussed. People shouldn't have to opt out of a system because it is their body, the state doesn't own it.

because it is their body

was their body. The dead can't own property ....

the state doesn't own it.

no one "owns" it ...

DGRossetti
because it is their body

was their body. The dead can't own property ....

Yet people have a say in what happens to their property, money etc. after they die, or are we going to negate that as well?

The dead's wishes get ignored all the time. It's only when a living beneficiary or similar complains that anything may be altered (burying someone who requested to be cremated or vice versa, disposal of possessions and money is only disputed by the living).

Given that donors carrying cards currently have their wishes overturned by NOK, I would prefer a change where those who had opted in couldn't be blocked from donating by family members, but I suppose that would be too tough for the organ donation staff to implement in practice, so I would like to see expansion of having-to-opt.
Given you get asked when you renew a driving licence, register with a GP or update details, and many times you end up in hospital, it shouldn't be too difficult to extend to the point of almost all the population being on the register of in or out.
Failing that, then I'll support opt-out so that if necessary, I could have organs of family members donated and alleviate my own grief slightly, as I'm pretty sure they won't bother actually opting out. Though tbh, even if they have, they'll be dead.

"So imagine that you’ve just been told that your loved one is brain dead and that they will be switching off the machines. And imagine being told in the same breath that no, you cannot stay with them as their heart stops because they will be wheeled away to theatre for their organs to be harvested (and yes, that is the term they use) as they chose to be organ donors, something which you were unaware of. So you get to say goodbye to a person who to you still looks alive. Their heart is beating, their skin is still warm, and they are then taken away. "

Honestly, I would understand they are dead. Its the brain that controls whether you are alive not the heart or blood circulation.

Actually brain stem death is a new concept

Yet people have a say in what happens to their property, money etc. after they die, or are we going to negate that as well?

That's the main problem, isn't it ? The NoK get their say over the deceased wishes ... bearing in mind people only get a say if they leave a will.

I feel that opting out just because you disgree with the change of opting in vs opting out is very tantrummy. Waaaah I can't have my way so I won't cooperate waaah.

The problem with opting in is that goo many people don't make the decision to opt in but when questioned the majority is pro donation. So the inactivity of the people have fucked up the opting in method. By opting out you have more donations and people still get to choose, however inactivity now means that you are a donor. The next of kin still has a say in this. It is still a gift.

“If you opt out you should never be allowed to receive a donor organ.”

I read and hear this so often but the medical profession has an ethics code. It is not ethical to link being a donor and being a recipient. This will therefore never happen.

Gottokondo

And the system has presumed consent which is much more open to abuse.

My sister died waiting for an organ.

I want to make something absolutely clear. Transplants must be given on the grounds of clinical need only. They must NEVER be seen as some kind of reward for good behaviour/willingness to donate.

My sister had always carried a donor card. This was not a factor in any medical decisions. And should not have been.

I feel that opting out just because you disgree with the change of opting in vs opting out is very tantrummy.

How else can you meaningfully indicate your disagreement ? Write a stiff letter to your MP ?

In fact, the bigger question is where did the mandate for this change originate ? I don't remember voting for it. And, to be honest, if it had been up for a vote - despite my strong feelings on organ donation - I might have voted against.

Where was it in the last Tory Manifesto ?

Gottokondo
I feel that opting out just because you disgree with the change of opting in vs opting out is very tantrummy.

SO you accuse people of being childish and then post

Waaaah I can't have my way so I won't cooperate waaah

Which is childish and goady, The irony is not lost.