In England the McCanns would be arrested

[LostPuppy]

Off the bat, I of course hope with all my heart that Madeleine is returned safely

But her "parents" are a disgrace. They left Madeleine and two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie sleeping in the apartment ON THEIR OWN. They had taken turns to return from the restaurant to check on their children.

Now hang on! In this country that is illegal, for very good reason.

Even if they 'checked on them' every five minutes that's plenty of time for one of the kids to wake up and try to go to the toilet and crack it's head open slipping on the bathroom floor, or something equally disastrous. They'd never hear the screaming from a bloody restaurant down the road!

Obviously it's unlikely, but I just cant comprehend the mentality of leaving three children under 3 alone on their own, ever, let alone at night in a foreign country!

Hulababy

I agree with you that the only person(s) to blame for Madeleine's disappearance is the person who has taken her.

But what if instead of being abducted, Madeleine had woken up, pushed open the patio doors that had been left unlocked, and sleepily fallen into the pool and drowned?

Nobody would foresee the risk of abduction. It's so statistically unlikely as to be out of sight. The McCann family were desperately unlucky.

But there are other risks. That's why it is worth making the point.

Quattrocento - you are so right.

Message withdrawn

Quattrocento - yes, that is what I said. If you speechless I think you are a bit naive.

It's not clear she was abducted from the room. The doors were open so she could have been trying to find her parents. The situation could have been very much as Quattro describes.

Aimsmum I think calling the parents a 'disgrace' is horrible.

I think discussing their mistake is ok to a degree. It doesn't really help to blame them for what's happened though does it?

Who feels better for pointing the finger at the parents? I certainly don't. And when I heard the mums at dd's school doing that it sickened me.

I too was shocked they had left 3 children under 4 alone in a room only checking on them every 30 minutes. I believe a 4 year old might get up for the loo in the night and might be scared if alone and not in her own home. However, I do not know the complex layout or have ever been on one of those kind of holidays so don't know what risk assessments the McCanns took.

They did make a mistake, a mistake they will have to live with the rest of their lives. We all make mistakes as parents I'm sure. The only person in the wrong is the piece of evil that took that little girl.

How does discussing what wonderful caring constantly listening-out parents help this situation?

You own a little chicken. You keep it in an enclosure which is surrounded by wolfes. You go in an you open the door to the chicken and you leave for 10 minutes. Do you seriously expect the chicken to be there when you get back?

You have 3 little, beautiful children. You leave them sleeping in a room and go for dinner down the street. The world is filled with perverts and paedophiles. Are you telling me you don't know you are taking a risk?

Quattrocentro - interested to know what involvement you have in childrens services? upto about 18 months ago I worked in a Child Protection Department and although i agree with you to a certain extent I have to say that it is not actually illegal to leave a child alone although its the intepretation of the Childrens Act that is a very grey area ! If I had had this reported to me or my department in this country there would certainly be investigations into the case by social servides but that would be done taking into account the type of family they are and their background as opposed to the type of family who would leave children alone whilst we go to the pub on a nightly basis ! This is why its such an emotive subject and that people are commenting on the McCann's as a family (white, middle class etc) but unfortunately there is a difference to them leaving their children and other types of people leaving theirs as you have to assess the risk. The McCanns were very unlucky and they will pay for that mistake every day of their lives even when/if they get Madeleine back but no amount of should they/shouldnt they will make them feel any worse than i imagine they already do.

I just think that right now is NOT the time for blaming the parents. I can't imagine how it could possibly help the cause right now. The only thing of concern is to have their child safe and back with the parents.

People make mistakes. They make judgements and don't always see the risks. There are threads all over Mn where people do such things - 3yos playing outside unsupervised; people leaving young children asleep in cot whilst they are outside in garden (for what it is worth you could not hear DD upstairs if in my back garden), leaving children in cars at petrol stations or local shops,, the list goes on... Just most of the time people are fine. Nothing happens. Because the chances of anything happening, even accidents, are pretty unlikely.

These parents will blame themselves forever. Thgey don't need other people telling them that they made a wrong decision. Do you really thinkt hey don't know that? And look at the cost they have paid as result? Would arresting them really make them learn the lesson any better?

To blame the parents right now whilst their little girl is still nowehere to be found is, IMO, tasteless and unnecessary. No matter how the reasons for it are wrapped up.

I've got an idea... let's wait until she's home, then we can all say what we want. Some of us are bound to feel that the parents are at fault, and some of us equally likely to feel that they are totally blameless.

Let's just save the mudslinging for when she's home safe, shall we?

I've got a few things to state that I have been thinking about for a couple of days now:

Firstly: Would we feel comfortable at leaving our own children in our own house in their beds while we go across the road to a nearby pub, taking our monitors with us? The answer for practically anyone to this would ne a resounding NO..... even though our 'risk assessment' of the situation would be based on our children's sleeping patterns in their own beds and home; our knowledge of our local area its inhabitants (to a general extent).

BUT when many many families go on holiday, they take this kind of risk because it is done by lots and lots of other families; the realxed environment of a family holiday resort encourages a kind of complancy and the 'risk assessment' done by parents considering leaving their children to sleep while they go and eat is based on just this: certainly not on the knowledge of their children's reactions (which may well be different given they are in strange beds, a different climate and unfamiliar surroundings). Sounds weird and a no-brainer to some when it's put like this but there you go. People do it, because lots of other people do it.

Secondly: Mark Warner Resorts and their ilk are basically like Little Englands, plonked in sunny climates. In other words, the culture of the local area is not fully adopted by the holiday makers, esp in the Med, which allows parents to feed their kids at 5 and eat later on their own, just as is the 'norm' for a vast numbers of families in the UK. If they were staying outside of these hoilkday resorts and in the surrounding villages instead, they would be adopting the local culture, which would be to take their kids to eat with them in restaurants where children are actively welcomed.

Another BUT: lots of families choose resorts such as this so they can live like they do at home but in a sunnier climate: maybe their kids don't stay up well and get grouchy; they can't get used to the siesta culture; whatever. So these resorts seem like the ideal answer.

The McCanns made a decision many many other parents have made in these circumstances, based on the fact that, over there, it is/was the norm and they felt relatively safe in doing so.

Of course they should not be arrested - they are suffering more than most of us will ever know and will continue to do so whatever the outcome (even if the outcome is positive, they will carry scars forever).

BTW I think that what they did was actually not much different to a lot of baby listening services that such resorts (although not this one) offer. teh frequency is not that much more frequent. And many of these accidents described could still happen without the listening service knowing. And a carefully planned abduction could also happen just as easily in the space of 15 minutes as it did in 30 minutes.

I agree, Aims.

If I find anything offensive, it's that people aren't allowed to express an opinion on the McCann's actions other than condoning them.

On MN of all places!

Where we've had posts accusing people who give their children formula of feeding them poison!

Yes, it is HORRIBLE what has happened to this little girl.

But they LEFT THREE YOUNG CHILDREN SLEEPING ALONE IN A GROUND FLOOR APARTMENT SO THEY COULD GO TO DINNER IN ANOTHER BUILDING ACROSS A SWIMMING POOL AND COURTYARD.

But somehow we're all supposed to give them the Gina Ford treatment.

What gives?

So everything else is fair game?

I don't see what is so 'insensitive' or 'offensive' in questioning their actions.

That is NOT the same as assigning blame or saying they deserve it. And it's not the same thing as having a drink out in your garden whilst your children sleep.

But hey, since we're going out on a limb here, yes, we all take risks. But as someone pointed out, we try to minimise those risks as much as possible.

There's a pub 50 yards from the door of our flat.

But would I go out there and have a meal and drinks and leave my 3 and 1 year old asleep in the flat?

If I came on here and said I did that, I'd get slagged to no end.

But somehow we can't say anything about the McCann's.

Okay.

Nobody is blaming the parents. Everyone is shocked by what has happened. It's very very distressing.

It also makes us think about our own choices and it's interesting to examine what is and isn't acceptable risk. I don't really know what a Mark Warner holiday is like but I have been wondering if it's family friendly marketing makes people think it's just like being in your own home whereas it's really a very public place.

and to state that 'the world is full of perverts and paedophiles' is just hysterical nonsense. Of course, there are some unsavoury and downright dangerous people out there. The vast majority though are just like you or me (I hope they're more like me actually at the moment though reading this thread )

why do people want this thread deleted ffs??

Just because people are speaking the truth?

What an infuriating thread.

What purpose can a discussion of whether the McGanns were right or wrong possibly have? Will it bring Maddie back? Will it make anyone feel better? Will it stop parents all over the world from doing what they have always done, which is to make their own judgement calls on how they parent their children?

Apparently, truth is a very selective and subjective thing, allgone.

I don't think the world is full of perverts.

I think the family were desperately unlucky.

I think that many other things could have happened to those children which were far more likely statistically.

I think we should be allowed to discuss risks around parenting and how we assess risks.

To me thought it is the timing of these discussions that is the issue. The little girl is still missing. I think time for these discussions when she is found.

expat - how many people have condoned their actions? I see very few.

Here people have said it's no good to blame them but that's not the same as condoning what they did.

They fucked up. What more should we say? Do you want to write to them and let them know how all the free-speaking people on MN are dissing them?

I agree entirely with expat - very well put.