Interesting and disturbing article about foetal alcohol syndrome.

[Callisto]

I found this article in the Sunday Torygraph yesterday, thought you'd all be interested: here.

Suppose that's the problem though, as they keep saying it's very difficult to measure exactly, they can't exactly do a controlled study, and if they ask people in retrospect they lie or forget the exact details.

Katy i think that's why abstinence is the advice they're giving out, because that is at least one clear message with little room for confusion.
i too was a bit about the facial deformity being thanks to lying face down in the gutter, as it were, but god knows there is something absolutely revolting about the idea of a baby being drunk...

agree with dundeemarmalade....

although babies can have odd shaped heads due to the way they lie in the womb, the characteristics of FAS , i thought were due to chromosomal issues...

also, ,massive difference between 4 bottles of wine a day, and a glass a week!

the facts are not clear about small to moderate amounts of alcohol, but is is clear that binge drinking and /or heavy, continuous drinking when pregnant has serious consequences...

But abstinence isn't the message midwives are giving out - it's one to two units, twice a week (at most, obviously )
I don't know whether it would be just easier to follow the abstinence rule, for me I suppose it would have been, after all I didn't have a problem not drinking for the first 16 or so weeks - I only started having the odd drink because it was now 'OK'. Though if that was the advice, people would start saying it's the nanny state, and there are no facts to back it up. So it would just go round in circles!

And yes, A20, I agree the thought of making your baby drunk is horrible

I thought the message was clear- 1 or 2 units, once or twice a week max?

If this causes damage, why do doctors/mw tell you that this is safe? I would have thought if there was doubt they would tell you to just abstain?

glitterkitty, I assume the reason is because there isn't any proof that that level of alcohol causes problems. If they promoted abstinence, people who might cut down (to the 4 units per week) might think "that's too difficult" and just carry on at their usual level.

The four units woman doesn't say whether that was the weekly or daily limit suggested by her GP. Maybe she didn't know - but 4/day would be 28 per week and that's more than the recommended limit for a woman anyway.

Guidelines are crap anyway. How many pubs/restuarants serve a 125ml glass of wine now? Round here you would struggle to get anything smaller than 175ml or wine under 12.5% ABV.

According to the unit calculator on the Portman Group website , a 125ml glass of 12% wine is 1.5 units. A pint of premium beer/lager (5%) is 3 units. How many people know that? No wonder GPs double what people give as their alcohol intake!

tbh i think the only doubt is whether or not you are telling truth, iykwim? if you are drinking 1-2 then i'm sure it's fine, but if you're saying you're drinking 1-2 but it's actually more then that's harder for health professionals to gauge. i supposed they're used to dealing with people who minimise their alcohol consumption so a blanket 'no booze' rule is an easier message.

Although, do they tell you to cut it out completely in the first 12 weeks? I didn't really pay attention as I couldn't drink anything other than water anyway! If that's the case then there doesn't seem any reason why they should up the levels later in pregnancy.

suew i noticed that about the 4 units thing... it was badly written, totally unclear whethershe meant perday or week.

AitchTwoOh - I hope that is the case as that makes me feel better

I'm sure any woman who has a child with problems which her medical advisor thinks could be related to alcohol will lie about her drinking, unless the doctor/midwife/consultant already knows she has a major alcohol problem and she probably will then too

katy.
plus there's the whole issue of what constitutes a unit. it's a teeny glass of wine, i think. so if that woman was drinking 4 big glasses of wine a week, let's say, she could have been on 8 units easily.

To me, the fact she goes on to say "have the odd glass and have a child like mine" implies she means 4 a week. No one would surely class four glasses of wine a night as "the odd glass", pregnant or not. Or would they??

Friend of mine lost a baby at 24 weeks. He survived for about 3 days then died. One of the first questions they asked his mother after he died was whether she had drunk alcohol in her pregnancy Insensitive or what? She was devastated.

i dont understand how women can drink at all whilst pregnant.

there are lots of things that people enjoy doing, but give up with no problems during pregnancy.

If you are pregnant and cant stop drinking full stop then surely there must be an alcohol dependancy problem?

i just dont see how someone can sit there and have half a pint, or just 1 glass of wine whilst pregnant,its beyond me!

ditto to smokers

i just dont get it

surely your baby is more important than any need to socialise or 'relax'?

its only 9 months!

Yes, definitely, that's what I meant about only really thinking about 'units' when pg. For example, when I started drinking again when pg, most of my 'glasses of wine' were shot glasses, as the wine we drink is strong. So I knew that unless it was double strength, I was having less than 125ml of normal wine, which is a unit.
Later on, I tended to have a smallish 'normal' glass, and count that as 1.5 to 2 units.
This sounds like I spent all my time with a notepad and calculator - I didn't, I promise

it's hard to say..I have seen threads on mn about drinking about half a bottle or so in the evenings at weekends during pregnancy..so is weekends every week? is a weekend one evening or three? is half a bottle or so 3 glasses or 5? is it a heavy red wine or lambrusco?

Her remark though: "The doctor's advice of up to four seemed fine. Though I doubt I even had that much at once at any time when I was carrying Kyle" implies to me that she believed it was fine to drink that many on any given occasion, iyswim.

Just badly written, perhaps bad info given by her GP, perhaps just bad communication (GP-mum-journo-editor!) or a prime example of why people don't understand. I'm not having a go at her, honest!

Each to their own, kittelette. I can never understand people who have these massive fixed opinions regardless of medical evidence and then try and force them onto others! Guess we all do the best we can...

in the US the advice is abstinence and nil safe level

"The effects of alcohol on an unborn foetus can be devastating, seriously affecting both the development of the foetus and having long-term affects on the child once born. Even a small amount of alcohol can be potentially damaging to a developing foetus, particularly when consumed within the first eight or ten weeks of pregnancy. Unfortunately, many women are unaware that they are pregnant until around the fourth or sixth week and will continue to drink until the pregnancy is confirmed"

This is the kind of rubbish you frequently see around. If this is the case then surely there would be much much more incidences of FAS!?

Not everyone acively ttc stops drinking before they get the blue line, plenty don't test immediately when their period is late. Plenty of people don't realise they are pregnant until much later in their pregnancies and still have healthy children.
I don't know what the answer is, but I think that F.A.S, as a relatively new 'syndrome', is something that is often misdiagnosed (i.e basing diagnosis on facial characterisics/mental retardation which could be entirely nothing to do with alcohol consumption), and absolutely sensationalised, particularly in the u.s and australia.

I think the syndrome is clear..it has very strong markers (if that is the right term)

Maybe someone should make pregnancy wine, with markings on the bottle and detailed instructions

Kittylette, I know where you're coming from, with me, the problem is willpower. Which is why I think if they told me don't drink at all, I would be fine, as they tell me I can have so much a week, I find it hard to resist! I had a GTT recently when the midwife found glucose in my urine (or "SUGAR in my WEE" as she helpfully put it), I know I eat too much sweet stuff, and before the test I amazed myself by avoiding it completely. Once the GTT showed there were no problems, again, I couldn't resist

If I get pregnant again I might just avoid it completely as it's not worth the doubt and guilt.